00604 { 8:55:50am} 01 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 02 FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA 03 04 MICHAEL FOUNDATION, INC., 04 05 Plaintiff, 05 06 vs. CASE NO. CV-00-0885-W 06 07 URANTIA FOUNDATION, et al., 07 08 Defendants. 08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 12 HAD FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2001 13 BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEE R. WEST, SENIOR JUDGE PRESIDING 13 14 JURY TRIAL - VOLUME IV OF VII 15 16 17 18 19 A P P E A R A N C E S 20 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MR. ROSS A. PLOURDE 20 MR. MURRAY E. ABOWITZ 21 Attorneys at Law 21 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 22 22 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: MR. STEVEN G. HILL 23 MR. PETER SCHOENTHALER 23 MR. ERIC MAURER 24 MR. DOUG KERTSCHER 24 Attorneys at Law 25 Atlanta, Georgia 25 00605 { 8:55:50am} 01 INDEX OF VOLUME IV 02 --------------------------------------------------------------- 03 DEFENDANT'S WITNESSES (CONTINUED): 04 FRANCES WILLARD RUSHING 05 DIRECT (By Mr. Kertscher) ..................... 610 05 CROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ........................ 629 06 REDIRECT (By Mr. Kertscher) ................... 638 06 RECROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ...................... 641 07 FURTHER REDIRECT (By Mr. Kertscher) ........... 641 07 FURTHER RECROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) .............. 642 08 Witness Excused .................................... 642 08 09 KATHARINE HARRIES 10 DIRECT (By Mr. Schoenthaler) .................. 643 10 CROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ........................ 666 11 REDIRECT (By Mr. Schoenthaler) ................ 668 11 RECROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ...................... 669 12 Witness Excused .................................... 669 12 13 MARY LOU HALES 13 14 DIRECT (By Mr. Schoenthaler) .................. 671 14 Witness Excused .................................... 680 15 15 CAROLYN KENDALL 16 16 DIRECT (By Mr. Schoenthaler) .................. 682 17 CROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ........................ 721 17 REDIRECT (By Mr. Schoenthaler) ................ 733 18 RECROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ...................... 737 18 Witness Sworn ...................................... 738 19 19 LESLIE TIBBALS 20 20 DIRECT (By Mr. Hill) .......................... 738 21 CROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ........................ 748 21 REDIRECT (By Mr. Hill) ........................ 750 22 RECROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ...................... 752 22 Witness Excused .................................... 753 23 24 25 (INDEX CONTINUED ON NEXT PAGE) 00606 { 8:55:50am} 01 INDEX OF VOLUME IV (CONTINUED) 02 --------------------------------------------------------------- 03 DEFENDANT'S WITNESSES (CONTINUED): 04 TONIA K. BANEY 05 DIRECT (By Mr. Hill) .......................... 754 05 CROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ........................ 797 06 06 ********** 07 07 08 08 09 09 00607 { 8:55:50am} 01 MORNING SESSION 02 FRIDAY JUNE 15, 2001 03 --------------------------------------------------------------- 04 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 05 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 06 THE COURT: Be seated. 07 I understand that the attorneys wanted to go on the record 08 with regard to some measure of agreement that they've reached. 09 MR. HILL: I think so, if we can get Ross. 10 THE COURT: Can you proceed without Ross? I 11 understood you all wanted to go on the record briefly before 12 the jury came in with regard to some issues that you all might 13 have reached agreement on; is that correct? 14 MR. ABOWITZ: I think so. 15 MR. HILL: I think so, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Can we proceed without Ross? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: On that basis, we can. 18 MR. HILL: Could we approach? 19 THE COURT: Sure. Just stand right up here. The 20 jury is not present. If you don't mind, since the jury is not 21 here, we don't have to have a bench conference. 22 MR. HILL: Well, but they want -- they've asked for 23 confidentiality with respect to -- we don't have an actual 24 written -- 25 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 00608 { 9:01:07am} 01 * * * 02 (A CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND THE COURT WAS HAD AT THE 03 BENCH REGARDING A CONFIDENTIAL SUBJECT MATTER AND HAS BEEN 04 PREPARED SEPARATELY FOR COUNSEL AT THE COURT'S DIRECTION) 05 * * * 06 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 07 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 08 MR. HILL: Your Honor, I'd like to introduce you to 09 my partner, Doug Kertscher. 10 THE COURT: Okay. This is the missing partner? 11 MR. KERTSCHER: Yes, sir. 12 THE COURT: Finally showed up? 13 MR. KERTSCHER: Yes, sir. Finally here at last. 14 THE COURT: Glad to have you. Glad to have you. 15 Welcome to Oklahoma. 16 MR. HILL: He's going to put on Dr. Rushing this 17 morning. 18 THE COURT: Good. We made arrangements for our best 19 possible weather for you. 20 MR. KERTSCHER: Wonderful. I appreciate it. 21 Has there been any discussion about my presence to the 22 jury? 23 THE COURT: About what? 24 MR. KERTSCHER: About my presence. 25 THE COURT: We'll introduce you or I'll ask Mr. Hill 00609 { 9:01:55am} 01 to introduce you to the jury and then I'll authorize you to go 02 ahead and participate and conduct the examination. 03 MR. KERTSCHER: Thank you very much, Judge. 04 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Judge, we have one juror not 05 here yet. 06 THE COURT: One juror missing? Who is he? 07 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: One of the gentlemen. 08 (PAUSE) 09 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 10 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 11 THE COURT: May I inquire if anything occurred during 12 the recess that would in any way prevent any of you from 13 continuing to serve as fair and impartial jurors in this case? 14 I gather not. 15 Call your next witness. 16 Oh, Mr. Hill, I believe you have a co-counsel to introduce 17 to the jurors at this time. 18 MR. HILL: Yes, Your Honor. This is my partner, Doug 19 Kertscher. He's going to be putting on -- 20 THE COURT: And he'll be -- 21 MR. HILL: -- Dr. Rushing. 22 THE COURT: -- interrogating the first witness? 23 MR. HILL: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 25 MR. KERTSCHER: Thank you, Your Honor. We'll call 00610 { 9:07:10am} 01 Dr. Francis Rushing. 02 THE COURT: Come up, if you will, sir, and raise your 03 right hand and be sworn. 04 (WITNESS SWORN) 05 FRANCES WILLARD RUSHING, 06 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 07 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 08 THE COURT: Be seated, sir. 09 I'll ask you to state your full name and spell your last 10 name for the jury. 11 THE WITNESS: All right, sir. My full name is 12 Frances Willard Rushing, R-U-S-H-I-N-G. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. KERTSCHER: 15 Q. Good morning, Dr. Rushing. 16 A. Good morning. 17 Q. Could you please tell the jury your profession. 18 A. I'm an economist and a faculty member at Georgia State 19 University. 20 Q. Tell the jury briefly what classes you teach at Georgia 21 State University. 22 A. Well, principally, I teach the fundamental economic 23 courses in micro and macro economics. Currently, I'm also 24 teaching the micro-macro economics for managers which is an MBA 25 course for graduate students. 00611 { 9:08:37am} 01 Q. Tell the jury briefly your education and work history. 02 A. All right, sir. I went to public schools in Savannah, 03 Georgia. Then I went to the University of Georgia where I 04 received my bachelor's degree in economics. From there I went 05 to the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. In Chapel 06 Hill, I remained in residence for four years and then I went in 07 the Air Force. While I was there, I completed all my 08 requirements for my doctor of philosophy degree in the field of 09 economics. 10 At the time I left Chapel Hill, I had an obligation to the 11 United States Air Force, so I became an economist for the 12 Department of Defense for three years and then I took my first 13 academic position at the University of Georgia in 1968. I was 14 at the University of Georgia from 1968 to 1972 as an assistant 15 professor. Then I went to the college of William and Mary in 16 Williamsburg, Virginia as an associate professor. Then I went 17 to Georgia State University in 1974 as an associate professor 18 of economics. I was promoted to full professor in 1980. 1990, 19 I became -- held an endowed position of professor of private 20 enterprise. 21 Q. Are you a member of any professional associations? 22 A. Yes, I am. I've been a member of the American Economics 23 Association, the Southern Economic Association, the Western, 24 Economic Association, the Association of Private Enterprise 25 Educators, and Society of Economic Educators. 00612 { 9:10:05am} 01 Q. Have you been qualified as an expert witness in the field 02 of economics in other courts in the past 10 years? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Have you been qualified as an economic expert in other 05 federal courts in the past 10 years? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. With regard to the publishing industry, do you have any 08 specific experience in publishing books? 09 A. Specifically, on my curriculum vitae, I have published 10 five books, one of which was an economics textbook. The other 11 four were -- one was a very extended treatise on training 12 utilization of scientists and engineers. Two other edited 13 versions of topics dealing with economic development. And, 14 finally, the last volume, which just came out last year, the 15 chair of private enterprise which I hold or held at that time 16 published the volume, a collection of works dealing with issues 17 related to private enterprise in the 21st century. 18 So that experience -- all of those experiences put me in 19 touch with and under the guidance of the various publishers who 20 published those volumes, working with the editors and working 21 with the marketing people to market. 22 The last experience was more extensive in the sense that I 23 essentially had the responsibility for both putting the book 24 together, getting it published, and also doing the initial 25 phase of marketing until I turned it over to the marketing 00613 { 9:11:36am} 01 people. 02 Q. Is that called self-publishing? 03 A. Yes, it is, technically, since I held the ramsey chair and 04 the ramsey chair is the publisher for all practical purposes in 05 self-publishing. 06 Q. Okay. Have you been asked by my office to investigate the 07 economic impact the book Jesus - A New Revelation would have on 08 sales of The Urantia Book? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Before we get into that, how many hours did you spend on 11 that project? 12 A. At this point, probably right around 20 hours or slightly 13 in excess of that. 14 Q. Okay. And for my next question, feel free to review 15 anything you have in front of you. 16 What documents did you review in performing this? 17 A. There were a number of documents that I reviewed in 18 preparing my analysis: the deposition of David Cantor; the 19 deposition of Harry McMullan, III; the exhibits from the 20 deposition of Harry McMullan, III; the mailer for Jesus - A New 21 Revelation; a mailer for The Urantia Book; Urantia Book order 22 forms; The Urantia Foundation worldwide consolidation itemized 23 sales report for July and August, 2000; Arthur Andersen's 24 Urantia Foundation affiliates combined financial statements as 25 of December 31, 1997 and 1996; printouts from some major book 00614 { 9:13:07am} 01 stores that carry The Urantia Book including Barnes & Noble, 02 Borders.com and Amazon.com. I also reviewed a declaration by 03 Gene Royer pertaining to the sale of The Urantia Book in France 04 during the year 1961. 05 In addition to that, I've reviewed some statistical 06 information published in the Statistical Abstract of the United 07 States and in the Bureau of the Census publication consumer 08 expenditure surveys. 09 I also had transmitted to me, I think, the initial order 10 for by Dickerson -- or quote by Dickerson press on the 11 publication of Jesus - A New Revelation mailer -- excuse me -- 12 A New Revelation. 13 Q. Thank you. 14 Have you interviewed any persons in forming your opinions 15 here today? 16 A. Yes, I talked to three different publishers, personnel at 17 the publishers, most of whom were in marketing and some in -- 18 or one in the publication side as well. Johann Press, Ingram 19 Book Group, and the Cambridge Press. 20 Q. Now, what economic theories did you employ to come to your 21 conclusions today with regard to the economic impact of Jesus - 22 A New Revelation on sales of The Urantia Book? 23 A. Okay. In economics, of course, we start out with theory. 24 The theory has evolved now over several centuries. The 25 fundamental element in any economic analysis really goes to the 00615 { 9:14:43am} 01 heart of supply-and-demand analysis. In this case, we were 02 essentially looking at demand. So the theory of demand, which 03 is the foundation stone of most economic analysis, lays out the 04 issue, and the issue is: what elements influence the demand for 05 any product, good, or service that might exist, and how might 06 that demand be altered over time as circumstances change? So, 07 you start out with that fundamental element. 08 In that element of demand, one component in determining 09 demand is that dealing with the goods. In particular, where 10 the goods are compliments or substitutes, one for the other, 11 because you get different kinds of reactions to a product 12 demand if you have new products come on line which compete with 13 the good that you're analyzing which would be quite different 14 from those which might come on line that might be complementary 15 goods to the one that you're analyzing. 16 Q. Well, could you tell the jury then a little bit, explain 17 to them a little bit what the difference is, if any, between 18 complementary goods and substitute goods. 19 A. Okay. Substitute goods are those that essentially one 20 would view as competitive. That is to say, those are 21 interchangeable terms, "substitute" and "competitive." You 22 would purchase one rather than the other, which is to say one 23 might buy a Coke rather than a Pepsi which would be competitive 24 goods. As we know, you go and make your choices. You have a 25 whole range. All of those soft drinks compete, one with the 00616 { 9:16:25am} 01 other, for your consumer dollar. You make a choice. It's 02 based on how much money you have, what your taste preference 03 might be for Coke or for Pepsi, let's say, and then you make 04 your determination and expend your dollar or two dollars, 05 depending on where you're buying it. 06 A complementary good, on the other hand, is a good which 07 is purchased and consumed jointly, which is to say if you were 08 a smoker, cigarette and matches are complementary goods. You 09 need a match to light a cigarette, so consuming a cigarette is 10 dependent upon a complementary good, the match, to light it. 11 In that sense, they provide value, one to the other, each being 12 consumed simultaneously but each providing value. 13 A second example would be a salad, raw salad, as we 14 sometimes have delivered to our tables at restaurants. We're 15 then asked what kind of salad dressing would we like to have 16 with it. Those are clearly complementary goods. Salad 17 dressing on salad, the notion being that salad dressings in 18 some way enhance the salad, so it adds value to the salad and 19 you can consume them jointly. 20 So, complementary goods are jointly each yielding value to 21 the other, whereas substitute or competitive goods are 22 either/or, you choose one or the other in the process of making 23 your consumer choice. 24 Q. Okay. This investigation of whether a good is a 25 complementary good or a substitute good, is that a common 00617 { 9:17:55am} 01 investigation in the economic field? 02 A. It's very common, as I just said. The theory of demand 03 pretty much dictates. For instance, in our courses, the one 04 I'm teaching now for managers of economics, we spend a great 05 deal of time essentially analyzing the difference between those 06 two types of goods and the influence the presence or absence of 07 a complement or a competitive good would have on the strategy 08 that you would take in enhancing your own sales of the primary 09 goods you're analyzing. 10 So, it's an integral part of any training we would have 11 for both economists but also now in terms of business training, 12 managers of business. 13 Q. What data are reasonably relied upon by economists when 14 they're trying to decide if something is a complementary good 15 or a substitute good? 16 A. Well, economists are very good at taking the broader 17 question and then breaking it down into subsets because the 18 world in general is so complex that we find in order to do an 19 analysis on one element, you have to hold other things, if you 20 will, fairly constant. 21 So, when you talk about complementary or substitute goods, 22 what essentially you have to do in your analysis is first you 23 do a broad spectrum of how big is the potential market for 24 anyone of this particular type, for instance: books. Then you 25 break that down into, perhaps, segments: religious books. Then 00618 { 9:19:27am} 01 you look at what might be out there in the way of available 02 income in the discretionary sense to be expended for books. 03 And then you further break it down to look at what is in the 04 market that might be either a compliment or a substitute. 05 Now, our analysis permits us, if you have data that has 06 been collected over time, sales of two different types of 07 books, let's say, that one can run certain statistical analyses 08 on that and make a fairly finite determination, the extent to 09 which one book enhances or decreases the sale of the other 10 book. It's called cross elasticity of demand, to put a very 11 technical term on something that is fairly simple when you 12 think about it. 13 But, essentially, you run just a fair formulation to say, 14 "If I change product B, what impact does that have on product 15 A?" And if you have historical data, you can generally, 16 through statistical measures, reduce and isolate that impact 17 specifically and directly to the competing or the substitute 18 good. 19 Q. Are there articles, economic articles or books, that 20 validate the use of that data in determining if something is a 21 substitute or a compliment? 22 A. It's an integral part of the literature on economic 23 theory. It's an integral part of the literature, if you will, 24 of all of the business economics courses that are taught in 25 both the undergraduate and the graduate levels. 00619 { 9:20:57am} 01 Q. Did you rely on this type of data in your investigation in 02 this case? 03 A. I did a statistical check on the nature and pretty much 04 how big is the book market, so to speak, and tried to isolate 05 of that approximately if the book sold, what percentage were 06 categorized, at least by the statisticians published in the 07 Statistical Abstract of the United States. Roughly 7 to 7.4 08 percent of all books sold fall into that general category, 09 religious-based kinds of materials. 10 MR. KERTSCHER: Your Honor, at this time we would 11 tender Dr. Rushing as an expert witness in the field of 12 economics. 13 THE COURT: Any objection, counsel? 14 MR. ABOWITZ: I'll stipulate to his qualifications as 15 an expert in economics. I will not stipulate to his 16 qualifications as an expert in the publishing field. 17 THE COURT: All right. Let me explain to the jury. 18 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, as you have noted, most 19 of the witnesses are limited to what they have seen or observed 20 or what is within their personal knowledge. They're not 21 allowed to express opinions with regard to matters. But the 22 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure allow and the rules of 23 evidence allow certain witnesses that the Court finds qualified 24 based upon science or training or education to be qualified as, 25 quote, experts in the field, to not only express things they 00620 { 9:22:25am} 01 can see and observe but their opinions with regard thereto as 02 contrasted to an ordinary fact witness. 03 Now, he's allowed to express those opinions and you're not 04 bound to accept those opinions, although you may if it will 05 assist you in arriving at your verdict in this case. You can 06 give his testimony such weight and credibility as you believe 07 it should be received. You're not bound to accept it. Indeed, 08 it's what your determination is at the end of the trial, what 09 your verdict should be. Instead of exactly what he says, you 10 may accept it in part or reject it in whole, but he is allowed 11 and is determined by the Court to be qualified to express his 12 opinion under the circumstances that I've outlined. 13 Go ahead, counsel. 14 MR. KERTSCHER: Thank you, Your Honor. 15 Q. (BY MR. KERTSCHER) Dr. Rushing, just two more quick 16 housekeeping matters. 17 Are you being compensated for your professional services 18 in this case? 19 A. Yes, I am. 20 Q. And how much -- what is your hourly rate? 21 A. $200 an hour. 22 Q. Okay. Have you, in the past, testified on behalf of both 23 plaintiffs and defendants? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion as to whether The Urantia 00621 { 9:23:34am} 01 Book and Jesus - A New Revelation are competitive or 02 complementary goods? 03 A. I do have an opinion. 04 Q. What is that opinion? 05 A. My opinion is that they are competitive. 06 Q. Tell the jury why. 07 A. Well, fundamentally, in looking at the two volumes, Jesus 08 - A New Revelation is, in fact, book IV of The Urantia Book 09 verbatim. In fact, the table of contents are each the same. 10 So, in a sense, they are the same if you compare book IV in The 11 Urantia Book and the Jesus - A New Revelation. So, in that 12 sense, if you look at identical products in the sense of book 13 IV versus Jesus - A New Revelation, they would be, in my mind, 14 conspicuously competitive. 15 The differences lie therein in the fact that there are 16 three other books in The Urantia Book which brings up some 17 other issues with respect to competitiveness mainly regarding 18 to sales price and other issues. 19 Q. Well, tell the jury in this analysis of whether it's 20 competitive or whether it's a substitute, tell the jury about 21 the value-added component and whether or not that's important. 22 A. Remember when we were talking about cigarettes and salad, 23 we said that you would use them jointly and they would add 24 value, one to the other, and you can see how your salad is 25 enhanced by your salad dressing. 00622 { 9:25:09am} 01 A value-added would imply that things that are compliments 02 and used simultaneously someway enhance -- one product enhances 03 the other product. If I were to give you an example, more 04 along the lines of this particular case, if you had William 05 Faulkner as an author and you had The Combined Works of William 06 Faulkner, and then after some time you had a publication that 07 came out that said "The Selected Works of William Faulkner," 08 not all the works but The Selected Works of William Faulkner in 09 which someone had chosen just parts of William Faulkner to 10 reproduce in another volume, I would see those as very much 11 directly competitive. A consumer with their dollars would go 12 into the market and would see both volumes sitting there and 13 would make a determination: "Do I want all the volume of 14 Faulkner or do I want only selected works?" They would thumb 15 through the volume of selected works to see if those were the 16 ones that they would most like to read and then proceed to make 17 their choice between those two options. Clearly, one is 18 competitive to the other. If you had the full volume of 19 Faulkner, why would you need the selected writings of Faulkner 20 because they would be included? 21 Let's assume, though, there's a third book that's out and 22 it's published -- and I'll give credit to my profession -- by 23 some academic in English literature who chose Faulkner and he 24 writes a very extended treatise on the characters developed in 25 Faulkner in which he goes through, in a very analytical sort of 00623 { 9:26:47am} 01 way, and talks about how Faulkner has developed these 02 characters in various ones of his books and, therefore, how the 03 reader can more fully understand the Faulkner by looking at the 04 interpretations of the character developed. I would see the 05 second volume as a compliment, in which if you bought the full 06 volume or whether you bought the short version, you would buy 07 the third book because it would compliment the first two so 08 that you, as a reader with that volume, would have a full 09 understanding and a greater appreciation of Faulkner, whether 10 it was all the works of Faulkner or selected works of Faulkner. 11 So there's value added from the character developments in 12 Faulkner to be either used with either one of the other 13 options. So you might indeed buy the complementary book, the 14 character development of Faulkner, to go along with either of 15 the other two. So you would have a case of a substitute and a 16 complementary book. 17 Q. Do competitive goods help or hurt each other's sales? 18 A. Well, they are, in fact, competitive. The notion of a 19 competitive, that's where we use the word sometimes 20 "substitute." A competitive is a choice -- is a choice, 21 either/or, which is to say, obviously, that if someone is rich 22 enough, they don't have to make those choices; they could buy 23 both. Typically, typically people are constrained by income; 24 therefore, they will make choices among the constrained options 25 that they go to, which is to say they narrowed it down, they 00624 { 9:28:24am} 01 know they want to buy Faulkner, and now which version of 02 Faulkner do they want to buy, and then they would make a 03 choice. But it would be unlikely that they would buy both 04 versions of Faulkner. 05 Q. So, Dr. Rushing, then is it likely that Jesus - A New 06 Revelation would help or hurt The Urantia Book sales? 07 A. In my estimation, it would hurt, and that is based on a 08 number of factors. Let me go into those. 09 The first is the fact that the Jesus - A New Revelation 10 is, in fact, a verbatim portion of the larger volume, The 11 Urantia Book. 12 Secondly, at least from the information provided as I 13 talked about, the quote from Dickerson Press, shows that the 14 book could have been published for about $3.80 a copy, 15 paperback. And that, according to their mailer, the volume 16 could be purchased for about $8.95. So, clearly, if you have a 17 book that is 1183 pages, it's going to sell for less than a 18 book that is 2086 -- excuse me -- 2176 pages, as The Urantia 19 Book is. 20 So you have, one, you have identical in one sense but not 21 totally because there is more in The Urantia Book than is in 22 the Jesus - A New Revelation, but you do have a very 23 significant price difference since the paper back of The 24 Urantia Book is going to most likely sell, according to their 25 flyer, somewhere around anywhere from 19.95 to 24.95, 00625 { 9:30:09am} 01 paperback, so it's almost twice as much, if you will, or over 02 twice as much in one case. So the cost associated with it is 03 different. 04 Now, what we know in economics and what demand theory 05 tells us, if price is lower, the quantity demanded is higher, 06 which is certainly a function of the fact that it brings in the 07 income constraint that we call it. Therefore, it's likely that 08 the cheaper version of very similar books is going to sell more 09 than the more expensive version. 10 The third element, which is, in part, a function of 11 marketing or appeal, if you will, to the consumer, we are all 12 subject to the marketing factors. How things are put together, 13 packaged, so to speak, is very relevant and important, how 14 attractive they are and so forth. 15 The titling and the package, the presentation of Jesus - A 16 New Revelation, is very effective. The title, I think, is very 17 descriptive, would have an appeal, I think, to a broad base of 18 the reading public, particularly those with interest in 19 Christian materials. 20 So, in all three cases, I think it has a very competitive 21 position vis-a-vis The Urantia Book, which is larger, more 22 expensive, and whose title, though descriptive in some sense to 23 its origin, is nevertheless not as fully descriptive or perhaps 24 as appealing as Jesus - A New Revelation. 25 So, in my estimation, the given choices of that nature, 00626 { 9:31:50am} 01 across the broad public are not for everybody, that a lot of 02 people would make choices early on to purchase the cheaper 03 version with its title and with its content over the larger 04 more costly version. 05 Q. Now, are you aware of any historical cases in which The 06 Urantia Book has competed against a volume that's very similar 07 to Jesus - A New Revelation? 08 A. The only information, and this comes out of the 09 declaration by Gene Royer about an instance in France in 1961, 10 The Urantia Foundation had, in fact, been pretty steadfast that 11 they wanted the book published in -- all four of the books 12 published in a single volume and did not want it broken down 13 for fear that it would be segmented and choices would be made 14 and they really hoped to have the book purchased in its entire 15 volume. But in 1961, in France, unbeknownst to The Urantia 16 Foundation, they did, in fact, break it down into three 17 volumes. The four books were broken into three separate books 18 plus the full collection. 19 What occurred in that one instance, which is the only data 20 that we have, is that the third book, which was the fourth 21 book, The Life and Teachings of Jesus in the Urantia volume, 22 outsold all the others, which is to say that people came in, 23 having the options of all the books in one volume or three 24 other books separated, they chose the last one, The Life and 25 Teachings of Jesus, to purchase, which would be the closest and 00627 { 9:33:37am} 01 most similar to Jesus - A New Revelation. 02 Q. So, is that a -- that real life experience in France in 03 1961, is that consistent or inconsistent with your conclusion 04 here today? 05 A. It's consistent with the hypothesis that it would, in 06 fact, be competitive and likely have sales that would diminish, 07 that is, Jesus - A New Revelation's sales would diminish the 08 sales for The Urantia Book. 09 Q. All right. Our last topic, Dr. Rushing. 10 Does Mr. McMullan's foundation, based on the information 11 you've been given, does it stand to make money on each book of 12 Jesus - A New Revelation that's sold? 13 A. Well, slightly rephrased, the cost of publishing the book 14 and the sales price is advertised. The sales price would be 15 sufficient to cover the cost plus to net out some revenues 16 which then could be described in a not-for-profit, they may be 17 called net revenues which would go into The Foundation. 18 Obviously, The Foundation then would have a choice how to 19 utilize those resources, which may be for further advertising 20 of the Jesus - A New Revelation or carrying out other 21 objectives of Michael Foundation. 22 But in any case, if, in fact, the hypothesis of this 23 analysis be true that they are competitive, then it might mean 24 that its net revenues are at the expense of The Urantia 25 Foundation's net revenues, which means they would lose some 00628 { 9:35:08am} 01 revenues to follow their choices for promoting their book 02 and/or meeting other of The Urantia Foundation's objectives. 03 Q. Well, just in layman's terms, how much, based on the 04 information, does it cost Michael Foundation to produce Jesus - 05 A New Revelation? 06 A. Well, roughly about $3.80, as I'd indicated earlier. They 07 advertised, though, that with some volume discounts it could be 08 slightly less than $8.95. So, you're looking at roughly $5. 09 Q. Of net gain per book? 10 A. Per book if it's sold at 8.95. If it was sold in the 11 volume discount after 10 of 7.95, it would be less. 12 Q. And even though it's a nonprofit entity, they'd still have 13 extra money to do things with it? 14 A. To meet whatever the objectives of The Foundation might 15 be. 16 Q. Would one of those objectives be advertising Jesus - A New 17 Revelation? 18 A. It could well be. 19 Q. And in a competitive situation such as this, does 20 increased sales and net gain for Mr. McMullan's foundation, 21 does that equal to decrease sales and net gain for The Urantia 22 Foundation? 23 A. Quite -- 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Object to the form of the question, 25 Your Honor. 00629 { 9:36:25am} 01 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. 02 Q. (BY MR. KERTSCHER) You may answer. 03 A. Okay. According to the analysis of competitive goods, 04 there would be direct trade-offs. That is to say, gains by the 05 one foundation, Michael Foundation, would be losses to The 06 Urantia Foundation. 07 MR. KERTSCHER: Doctor, I have no further questions. 08 Thank you. 09 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Cross? 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 13 Q. Good morning, Dr. Rushing. How are you? 14 A. Fine, thanks. How are you? 15 Q. Fine. 16 The $200 an hour that you get paid, do you get paid portal 17 to portal? In other words, when you left your house, whenever 18 you did, and cranked up your car to go to the Atlanta airport, 19 were you on the tab? 20 A. Sir, I'll have to tell you that in this case I got in a 21 taxicab in Cairo, Egypt and went to the airport and flew to 22 Oklahoma City from Cairo, Egypt. 23 The answer to the larger question is no, I'm not charging 24 portal to portal. 25 Q. Would you from Atlanta? 00630 { 9:37:37am} 01 A. The travel time is usually built in on a charge but at a 02 reduced rate. 03 Q. All right. Now, incidentally, you brought some papers 04 with you. What are they? 05 A. I brought a piece of paper with me. 06 Q. What is that? 07 A. It's just some notes I had on the materials that I 08 reviewed since I didn't trust my memory to provide all of that 09 information verbatim. 10 Q. May I see it? 11 A. You certainly may. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Thank you. 14 I see on there you've indicated to the ladies and 15 gentlemen of the jury and the Court that one of the things you 16 did to prepare for the opinions that you've rendered here today 17 is you've discussed the matter with a representative of 18 Cambridge Press, and I notice that on your sheet there that 19 individual is identified as Mr. Davis. 20 A. Robert Davis, I believe. He may go by Rob. 21 Q. Do you know he testified here yesterday? 22 A. No, I did not. 23 Q. When you talked to him, did you know that he was a witness 24 in this case? 25 A. I did not. I did not know until you just said so, sir. 00631 { 9:39:12am} 01 Q. How did you get to speak to him? Was the introduction 02 provided by the lawyers? 03 A. No, it was a cold introduction. I phoned him. The 04 attorneys had given me a long list of public publishers and/or 05 distribution houses that they had a list of and I simply went 06 through and chose certain ones to call and try and talk to. My 07 recollection about Mr. Davis was that I had called and left 08 word, and the reason I have such a strong recollection is he 09 called me back fairly late on a Friday evening and I was 10 curious that he was still working so late in the day. But I 11 cold-called all of those individuals. There was no prior 12 introduction by anyone of me to them and I essentially started 13 cold in trying to describe what issues I was trying to deal 14 with and get their views on them as best as I could describe 15 them and have them provide some opinion. 16 Q. When you called Cambridge Press, did you have his name? 17 A. Yes, I did. I asked to speak directly to him, yes. 18 Q. So somebody provided that name to you before you called 19 Cambridge Press? 20 A. Yes. As I described to you, I had a whole list of -- and 21 I chose of that list I think maybe I called four or five and of 22 that I got three responses and I talked with them. 23 Q. What was your discussion with Mr. Davis? 24 A. It essentially was describing the issues that I was trying 25 to address, describing the two publications that are in 00632 { 9:40:52am} 01 question, asking about his perception of whether or not the 02 volume -- the two volumes, if you will, how competitive or 03 complementary they might be. Those kinds of -- many of the 04 issues that I've already talked about in the direct 05 examination. 06 Q. So your opinion today is at least in part based upon what 07 Mr. Davis's view is of the competitive nature of those two 08 books? 09 A. Yes, in part. There was other conversations about the 10 general nature of the industry. I think we had some 11 conversation about inventories and those kinds of things of 12 which I have not talked about. But he was the last person with 13 whom I spoke, and his opinions and views parallel those of the 14 other individuals with whom I had spoken. 15 Q. Let's discuss for a minute several of your Faulkner 16 analogy. If I am after a specific work of Faulkner and it is 17 not in a volume that says, "Selected Works of Faulkner," I'm 18 going to go buy the volume someplace else; is that correct? 19 A. If you want a specific book of Faulkner's, you would go 20 out and buy it, yes. 21 Q. And would you agree in that example, there is no 22 competition between The Selected Works of Faulkner and the book 23 that I ultimately buy? 24 A. No, I would not agree. I think if you have published The 25 Selected Works of Faulkner, which might include the book you're 00633 { 9:42:40am} 01 seeking, -- 02 Q. My example is it does not. 03 A. Oh, does not? 04 Q. Does not. 05 A. Okay. Then it would not compete with the selected works. 06 It would compete with the full volume of Faulkner's works. 07 Q. My question is, sir, I have a specific book in mind, a 08 work of Faulkner that I want to read, I go to the book store, I 09 look at The Selected Works of Faulkner, and what I want to read 10 isn't in there. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. I then go and buy the volume I want to read. 13 My question is: The two works are not competitive; is 14 that correct? 15 A. Those two works are not competitive. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 Now, you indicated that in an instance there may be, 18 depending upon income, a person that would buy all the Faulkner 19 books if income was not a question -- I mean if dollars were 20 not a question. 21 A. That's right. The income constraint is always one that 22 you work with in demand theory. 23 Q. And did you do any economic study of the disposable income 24 of the readers of The Urantia Book? 25 A. I don't have a profile of the readers of The Urantia 00634 { 9:43:48am} 01 Book. I don't know specifically the economics or the -- let's 02 say the sex or the age of that population. 03 Q. The answer is no? 04 A. The answer is no; that's correct. 05 Q. Thank you. 06 Now, are you a reader of The Urantia Book? 07 A. No, I'm not. 08 Q. Did your investigation disclose that the readers of The 09 Urantia Book are in different categories? 10 A. I'm sorry. You'll have to -- did who disclose this to me? 11 Q. I didn't ask you if anybody disclosed it. I said during 12 your investigation -- 13 A. Okay. Go ahead. 14 Q. -- did the investigation you conducted disclose to you 15 that there are various categories of Urantia Book readers? 16 A. I know there are quite an extensive volume of them but 17 when you say did I realize there were different categories of 18 readers, I guess my answer to that would be no. 19 Q. All right. Well, do you recognize the category of 20 devotional readers? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you recognize the category of academic readers? 23 A. Well, I understand academic readers but not in the context 24 of The Urantia Book. I would say in the conversations with 25 some of the publishers, there are scholars, religious scholars, 00635 { 9:45:16am} 01 who would presumably purchase The Urantia Book for the purposes 02 of their scholarship, but I don't have a feeling that's what 03 you're referring to specifically. 04 Q. Well, let's talk about that. Mr. Davis told us that he 05 didn't -- that he was a reader of The Urantia Book but didn't 06 want to be confused with a devotional reader of The Urantia 07 Book. Does that indicate to you that there is more than one 08 category of a reader? 09 A. I think every person is a different category of a reader. 10 I think we all get different things out of literature and I 11 think what we as individuals seek will help guide what we 12 purchase and also how we interpret what we read. 13 Q. In the course of your investigation into this case and the 14 development of your opinion, did you take into account the 15 spiritual nature of The Urantia Book? 16 A. I realize that it is spiritual in nature to certainly some 17 but, once again, you're differentiating one group of people who 18 do not see it as spiritual but as an academic reading. 19 Q. And did you take that into account in your assessment of 20 the market? 21 A. We have -- no, I did not -- 22 Q. Thank you. 23 A. -- and I'll tell you why I didn't. 24 Q. You just said "no" and if they want to find out why, 25 that's fine. 00636 { 9:46:36am} 01 MR. KERTSCHER: Excuse me, Your Honor. I think the 02 witness is entitled to express -- 03 THE COURT: No, I think you can bring it out on 04 redirect if you want to, but he's answered. He's on cross- 05 examination and yes or no is sufficient. The explanation will 06 be brought out later. 07 MR. KERTSCHER: Thank you, Your Honor. 08 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, if I am a devotional reader and I 09 am truly interested in The Urantia Book, I would buy all four 10 sections of it in The Urantia Book as published; correct? 11 A. Well, you're asking me to interpret human behavior and the 12 economists don't interpret human behavior; we only see what 13 people do. 14 Q. You can't; is that correct? 15 A. We only see what people do. 16 Q. You're unable to do that? 17 A. That's correct. I can't interpret their motives. All I 18 can do is see their consequences. 19 Q. And you're unable to take account of that in your analysis 20 and opinion; is that correct? 21 A. Well, may we go back, sir, because I'm not sure I 22 understand the question? 23 Q. Well, let me rephrase. 24 You have indicated to us that you have not taken into 25 account in your opinion the fact that there are people who 00637 { 9:47:51am} 01 would purchase that book and would -- 02 A. Which book, sir? "That book"? 03 Q. Purchase The Urantia Book for its spiritual content and 04 they would read it as a devotional reader. My question to you 05 is: You have not contemplated that in your analysis; is that 06 correct? 07 A. That is correct. 08 Q. Thank you. 09 Now, have you contemplated in your analysis that 10 devotional readers who buy Jesus - A New Revelation who are 11 interested in the spiritual content of The Urantia Book after 12 reading Jesus - A New Revelation and reading the index and 13 reading the reference to Urantia Book would buy a copy of The 14 Urantia Book? 15 A. Am I aware that that's a possibility? The answer would be 16 yes. I think that there's a whole range of possible options 17 the consumer would have and that's not one I would rule out. 18 Indeed, having sampled, they may in fact buy the full volume. 19 Q. Do you know what percentage of the market for The Urantia 20 Book is made up of devotional readers? 21 A. I do not. 22 Q. Have you, in the course -- you've testified, as I gather 23 from your resume, about 70 times over the last 70 years -- 24 seven years? 25 A. I think that's testifying either in deposition or in 00638 { 9:49:30am} 01 court; yes, sir. 02 Q. But that's under oath? 03 A. That's correct, sir. 04 Q. Rendering an opinion on behalf of a party in a lawsuit? 05 A. Correct, sir. 06 Q. That's about 10 times a year. I was unable, by virtue of 07 the names of the cases, to determine if you've ever offered 08 opinions and testimony with respect to the economics of a book 09 market before or publishing. Is that true? 10 A. Yes, sir, that is true. 11 Q. You've never -- 12 A. I was waiting for the question. Yes, sir, that's true. 13 Q. And the question is: You've never testified with respect 14 to the publishing market for book sales; is that correct? 15 A. That is correct, sir. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: That's all I have. 17 THE COURT: Recross -- or redirect? 18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. KERTSCHER: 20 Q. Let me follow up on that, Dr. Rushing. 21 You said you've published five books? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Did any of those books have anything to do with 24 intellectual property and copyright? 25 A. One of them was, in fact, was entitled Intellectual 00639 { 9:50:33am} 01 Property Rights and Its Role in Economic Development. 02 Q. And you wrote and published that book? 03 A. I was the editor of the volume and wrote one of the 04 chapters in there, yes. 05 Q. Now, are you aware of whether or not The Urantia Book is 06 available to the public as a whole? 07 A. I'm aware that it is available as a whole. In fact, they 08 have sold quite a number of volumes. 09 Q. And under general economic theory, is it likely or 10 unlikely that people will buy what they already have? 11 A. Well, what the evidence shows is that roughly now 12 The Urantia Book is selling somewhere between 25- and 30,000 13 copies a year. 14 Q. And to use counsel's analogy of the Faulkner work, the 15 smaller work that has excluded portions and you look for one of 16 those portions and it's not there so you go to the bigger book, 17 I think you had started to finish your answer and let me let 18 you finish now for the jury. Are those complementary or 19 competing goods? 20 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me, Your Honor. I'm going to 21 object to the recreation of my question. It's wrong. If you 22 want me to ask him -- 23 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection to the 24 extent that I didn't understand your question. 25 MR. KERTSCHER: Fair enough. Fair enough. Let me 00640 { 9:51:50am} 01 try it again. I'm sorry. 02 Q. (BY MR. KERTSCHER) Do you recall the question I'm talking 03 about on cross-examination, Dr. Rushing? 04 A. Yes, I do. 05 Q. In that situation where you have a Faulkner work that's 06 made up of only part -- selected works of Faulkner, does that 07 work, if a reader goes there and they can't find the selected 08 work they are looking for so they then go to the bigger volume, 09 has that smaller work, the selected work, has that encouraged 10 anyone to buy the bigger volume? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So are they complementary goods? 13 A. No, they would still be substitute. In that analogy, the 14 single volume which was not found in the selected works was 15 clearly in the full volume of the other works. So, the single 16 book of Faulkner is still competitive, if you will, with the 17 collection of all the Faulkner works. It may not be 18 competitive in a direct sense since only that book, as the 19 analogy had it, was the only book they wanted to purchase, so 20 they had two options: the fuller version or the small version, 21 and they went to the small version because that most met their 22 needs, and that would show up in the data. But a sale for the 23 single volume is certainly not a sale for the larger collection 24 of works. 25 Q. And in that case that counsel used, the smaller volume has 00641 { 9:53:16am} 01 not encouraged anyone to buy the larger volume, has it? 02 A. No. 03 MR. KERTSCHER: I have no further questions. Thank 04 you. 05 THE COURT: Recross, if any? 06 MR. ABOWITZ: May I from here, Your Honor? 07 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 08 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 09 Q. But the smaller volume in this case, Jesus - A New 10 Revelation, does create a demand or could create a demand for 11 The Urantia Book by virtue of its reference to The Urantia 12 Book; is that correct? 13 A. Well, if you consider an advertisement for The Urantia 14 Book, I suppose that they would be aware of The Urantia Book 15 when they bought the Jesus - A New Revelation, yes, since it 16 clearly states in the forward -- or the preface, I believe, 17 that that's the source of the material in the Jesus - A New 18 Revelation. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 20 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. KERTSCHER: 22 Q. Doctor, does that fact change? Does it change the fact 23 that they're competitive goods? 24 A. No, it does not. 25 MR. KERTSCHER: Thank you. 00642 { 9:54:10am} 01 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 03 Q. Are they competitive goods if there's no copyright? 04 MR. KERTSCHER: Objection, Your Honor. 05 THE WITNESS: That's a legal question, I believe, 06 sir. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: I'll withdraw the question. 08 THE COURT: Sustain the objection. 09 You may step down. You'll be excused. 10 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 11 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I call Katharine Harries. 13 THE COURT: Come forward, please, and raise your 14 right hand and be sworn. 15 (WITNESS SWORN) 16 KATHARINE HARRIES, 17 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 18 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 19 THE COURT: Be seated here, if you will, on the 20 witness stand. 21 I'll ask you to speak into the microphone and state your 22 full name and spell your last name, please. 23 THE WITNESS: My name is Katharine Lee Jones-Harries, 24 H-A-R-R-I-E-S. 25 00643 { 9:56:14am} 01 DIRECT EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 03 Q. Ms. Harries, would you introduce yourself to the jury and 04 tell them a little bit about yourself. 05 A. I think you probably all heard my name just then. I was 06 born and raised in Chicago, lived there all my life, went to 07 school there, got married and raised my daughter there. Once 08 she moved on to Georgia, we had no family left up north, so we 09 moved down there too. And we've been living down in Georgia 10 just outside Atlanta for about 15 years. 11 I went to school in Chicago: grammar school, high school, 12 University of Illinois. And I have been a member of what we 13 called The Forum in Chicago, as were my parents, my father, 14 then my mother, then my maternal grandmother who came to live 15 with us because she was without, and when I got old enough I 16 started going down with them to 533 Diversey to The Forum, and 17 when I got a little bit older I was able to go to meetings with 18 them. 19 Is that enough? 20 Q. Thank you. Sure. 21 Let's talk a little bit about that. Let's start, if you 22 don't mind, telling the Court, can you tell me your date of 23 birth? 24 A. I'm a Christmas baby, December 23rd, 1925. 25 Q. And I think you mentioned that -- I gather at that time 00644 { 9:57:56am} 01 your parents were living in Chicago? 02 A. Yes, they were. 03 Q. Tell the jury about how you first became marginally aware 04 that there was some group called The Forum. 05 A. As I was growing up, we were all members of the Episcopal 06 Church but that was in the morning on Sunday and I kept 07 noticing that on Sunday afternoon, after we had gone home from 08 church and had dinner, that my father would disappear, and for 09 a while I didn't know just where he was going. Then I found 10 out that he was going up to the north side of Chicago because 11 he was attending a group that was studying all sorts of 12 interesting things and that it really was very religious. It 13 was mostly about God and about his Son, whom we call Jesus, and 14 what's going to happen to us throughout our lives and after our 15 life on this planet, the magnificent future that we have, so 16 eventually my mother started going with him. 17 When I was, oh, about 11, 12, 13, somewhere in there, they 18 started taking me with them on Sunday afternoons but I was too 19 young to attend the meetings, so I would play or read on the 20 first floor offices of the Sadlers' and sometimes I was allowed 21 in nice weather to go up to the rooftop and sit in the sun and 22 visit up there. 23 When I became a little bit older, 13, I started attending 24 the meetings. And then when I was 16, I actually had a talk 25 with Dr. Sadler and told him I was very, very interested and 00645 {10:00:00am} 01 committed and would like to become a member of what we called 02 The Forum. So I signed the register book and I was a member 03 and started going to meetings every Sunday. 04 Q. Now, Ms. Harries, let's step back. You said, I believe, 05 that when you were 11, 12, 13, and I'm sure the exact time 06 isn't set in your mind, when would that have been around? 07 A. I'm sorry? 08 Q. You were about 11 to 13. That would have been 09 approximately in 1936, 1937, 1938? 10 A. Right, uh-huh. 11 Q. And you couldn't attend meetings, so what did you do? 12 A. When I was there in the afternoons but not at the 13 meetings? 14 Q. Uh-huh. 15 A. I would be with Ruth Kellogg who was the daughter of the 16 Kellogg family and they were related to the Sadlers. Ruth was 17 completely deaf, had been for many years because of a childhood 18 illness. I think it would be measles that make some people 19 deaf. She was a delightful young woman, could lip read, and we 20 talked constantly. She would take me into Dr. Sadler's offices 21 and I would look at the fetuses in the formaldehyde in the 22 bottles and she'd show me all the equipment, so on and so 23 forth. And, as I say, when it was -- there was no air 24 conditioning back then, so when it was a hot day we'd go up and 25 sit on the roof and continue to talk, and that's the way I 00646 {10:01:45am} 01 spent my time there until I was old enough to join. 02 Q. Now, before you joined, tell me about your father and 03 how -- tell me what you -- tell me what you observed in your 04 father's demeanor. How did your father act regarding what was 05 going on? 06 A. My father was always a very gentle, loving, kind man, 07 always very dedicated to God and to his own religious life and 08 our religious life. And I really am not quite sure just what 09 you're getting at with the rest of the sentence. He was a 10 delightful, wonderful, kind and good person. 11 Q. Would you say that he was excited about what was going on? 12 A. Tremendously. It truly took over his life and made him 13 completely dedicated to what he was learning and studying every 14 Sunday and dedicated to doing whatever he could do then and in 15 the future to be able to spread the information that's found in 16 The Urantia Book, spread it throughout the whole world. 17 Q. And in stepping back, before your mother joined, what was 18 her take on what your father was doing? 19 A. In the beginning she didn't know what was happening 20 because daddy would disappear every Sunday afternoon, and she 21 finally found out that he was going to a group that was 22 studying, and studying about God in particular. And she 23 decided she would like to go see what it was all about and she 24 went with him and she became so fascinated with it all and 25 liked it so very much that she asked if she might join, and she 00647 {10:03:49am} 01 was given permission to do so by Dr. Sadler, and so she did. 02 So we have a whole family history of it. 03 Q. So in 19- -- approximately 1938, -- 04 A. About then, yes. 05 Q. -- you began to attend meetings -- 06 A. Uh-huh. 07 Q. -- but you did not join at that time? 08 A. Right. 09 Q. Would you tell me a little bit about what you observed at 10 those meetings. 11 A. The room in which the meetings was held was on the second 12 floor of the building, right across the front of the building. 13 Windows all along one side and chairs to sit in with an aisle 14 down the middle. At the front of the room was a lectern and 15 Dr. Sadler or his son, Bill Sadler, would talk to the people 16 who were assembled there about all sorts of things that they 17 had been studying and learning and, as time went on, things 18 that they were learning through the papers that were coming 19 through to them, the information that you would find in the 20 reading of The Urantia Book. 21 Q. And would only Dr. Sadler and Bill Sadler read the papers? 22 A. No. Sometimes Christie, who was secretary there, would 23 read the papers. In later years, after we had all been 24 studying for a long time, people would select a topic from The 25 Urantia Book and act as school teachers themselves. They would 00648 {10:05:32am} 01 work it up from the information found in the papers and then 02 they would give -- they would read the paper and they would 03 answer the questions that were asked them. 04 Q. Now, what type of people were in The Forum? 05 A. People from all walks of life. We had doctors and 06 lawyers, executives, businessmen, house wives. For a long, 07 long time I was the only one there that you might put in the 08 classification of children. We had every walk of life, men and 09 women, and young people. 10 Q. Now, when did you first meet Dr. Sadler? 11 A. Well, I met him when I first started going to 533 Diversey 12 when I still wasn't able to go up to the meetings because it 13 would break at the half and everyone would go out for a short 14 time to get an ice-cream or a Coke, and then the second half of 15 the meeting would start and so I got to talk with him and I 16 knew him, I knew his wife and his son and his grandchildren. 17 Q. What was your first impression of Dr. Sadler? 18 A. Brilliance. He was -- He had a brain that was 19 astounding. He was a truly brilliant person and a kind, loving 20 man, and very capable in everything that he did. 21 Q. Did you also get to know his wife? 22 A. Yes, I did, but for a very short time because she did die, 23 and I don't know what year it was but it was fairly early. 24 Q. What about -- there's been some talk of a group called the 25 Contact Commissioners. 00649 {10:07:41am} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Was Dr. Sadler and his wife Contact Commissioners? 03 A. Yes, Dr. Sadler; Dr. Lena, his wife; his son, William 04 Sadler, Jr., whom we all called Bill; and I'm not sure whether 05 Christie, the secretary, was a member of The Contact Commission 06 or not. And I believe Mr. Kellogg was. 07 Q. And did you get to know Christie at all? 08 A. Yes, for many, many years. And Christie and my mother 09 were very close friends. I worked with Christie, not 10 professionally at all, but in later years, as I was holding 11 different offices, I guess I'd call them, in The Forum and 12 first Urantia Society, I worked a great deal with Christie. 13 Q. And would you tell the jury a little bit about Christie, 14 what type of person she was. 15 A. Christie's name was Emma L. Christensen. I believe she 16 was from Minnesota, and at one time I also met her sister. She 17 was tall, a very nice-looking woman, very, very smart, and she 18 was a great help to Dr. Sadler in everything that he was doing 19 because she was also a stenographer and a typist. But she was 20 always there and always at the meetings and even though I was a 21 child, she never treated me as such. She was always very 22 solicitous, very, very good. 23 Q. Now, at some point -- you began attending meetings in 1938 24 -- and at some point you decided that you wanted to expand your 25 introduction into The Forum. How did you go about doing that? 00650 {10:09:45am} 01 A. After attending Forum meetings on Sunday, if a person 02 decided that he wanted to become a signed-up member and really 03 devote himself to studying what was in the Urantia Papers, all 04 one had to do was to go talk to Dr. Sadler, tell him exactly 05 those things, ask if it would be perfectly all right to join 06 and attend every week, and as long as he felt that the person 07 was quite sincere in that desire, that person was immediately 08 allowed to sign the register book and become a member. 09 Q. Now, were there any obligations placed upon you when you 10 signed up to be a member of The Forum? 11 A. The only obligation was that none of the things that were 12 discussed at 533 in the meetings were ever to be discussed 13 outside of the building with people who knew nothing about what 14 was going on, knew nothing about the Urantia Papers. So, we 15 could discuss things with one another, with our -- I had my 16 mother and father there and my grandmother, so I could discuss 17 with them. But other relatives who were not members of The 18 Forum couldn't -- we couldn't talk with them about the 19 teachings that were in the Urantia Papers at the time. 20 Q. Was the purpose of the oath ever communicated to you, why 21 you were to remain secret? 22 A. I don't -- 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I believe that calls for a 24 hearsay answer. 25 THE COURT: Overruled. 00651 {10:11:28am} 01 A. Would you state the question again, please? 02 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Sure. 03 Did you have an understanding of why The Contact 04 Commission wanted new Forum members to sign an oath not to 05 discuss? 06 A. This would really be my own understanding of the reason, 07 and I think it was because, as all of this information was so 08 new at the time and was incomplete because it came over a 09 period of many months and years, that it was just felt that it 10 would be unwise in many respects and many things that might 11 cause problems with other people and that they would not 12 understand what we were doing and think that it was something 13 that we shouldn't be doing, because if you don't know what's 14 going on, you can think anything you want. So it was better 15 that we just didn't talk about it, excepting within our group. 16 Q. What else did The Forum do together? These meetings -- 17 let me understand this -- they always occurred on a particular 18 day; is that correct? 19 A. We met Sunday afternoon from about 1:00 until 3:30, 20 4 o'clock, somewhere around in there. We had parties as a 21 Forum group. We had a big summer party out at the people that 22 we call Ma and Pa Hales. They were the, what I would call, 23 grandparents in age relationship to me. But we would go out to 24 their large home in Oak Park, Illinois, which was a northern 25 suburb of the city, and all take our big baskets of food with 00652 {10:13:31am} 01 us and they would provide the hamburgers and hot dogs and we 02 would have a tremendous party all day long, and then later in 03 the day we'd go back into the house and we'd all talk. 04 Q. Now, at the time you joined in 1941, do you recall the day 05 you joined The Forum? 06 A. No. 07 Q. Was it around -- How old were you; do you recall that? 08 A. I was able to start attending meetings at 13 but not able 09 to talk with Dr. -- to join -- to sign the paper and join as an 10 official member until I was 16. That was the youngest anyone 11 was allowed to join then. After -- A few years later, they 12 upped the age to 18. 13 Q. And when was your 16th birthday, if you recall? 14 A. December 23rd. 15 Q. 16 years from the -- 16 A. 16 plus 25. 17 Q. Okay. Well, we've talked a little bit about the 18 trustees -- I mean -- excuse me -- the Contact Commissioners: 19 Dr. Sadler, Ms. Christensen, Dr. Sadler's wife and the Kelloggs 20 and Bill Sadler. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Let's start with Dr. Sadler. 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. You've described him somewhat. Do you have an opinion as 25 to whether he was a reputable and honest man? 00653 {10:15:00am} 01 A. Most definitely. He was, to use the terms that we use 02 today, he was squeaky clean. He was very reputable, very kind, 03 very good, and very honest. 04 Q. And would you have the same opinion of his wife? 05 A. Yes, although she died early in life, so I didn't know her 06 for those long years. But she was the same way. 07 Q. And how close were you with the -- I mean, I know you were 08 much younger but how close were you with the Kelloggs? 09 A. Very. Especially with their daughter who was deaf from a 10 childhood illness and was very dear, very thoughtful and kind 11 to me as a young child, so I spent a lot of time with her in 12 the early years. 13 Q. And did you get to know her parents, the Kelloggs? 14 A. Yes, I knew Mr. and Mrs. Kellogg for many years because 15 they were there at 533 all the time. 16 Q. Do you have an opinion -- 17 A. Very nice couple. 18 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether they were honest? 19 A. Very honest. Good people. 20 Q. What about Christie? 21 A. Christie was what I would call a darling. She was a very 22 bright woman and had done a number of things in her educational 23 life. She also acted as a secretary, took stenography and 24 typed. Back in those days, it was shorthand; it wasn't with a 25 machine. She had a good education and was a fine person. 00654 {10:16:46am} 01 Q. And before we move on, were these meetings that took place 02 on Sunday? 03 A. Where? 04 Q. No. These meetings that took place -- 05 A. Yes, they took place on Sunday. 06 Q. Did they always take place at the same location? 07 A. Yes, they did. 08 Q. Where was that? 09 A. That was on the second floor in the front living room at 10 533 Diversey, Chicago. 11 Q. And who resided at that address? 12 A. Dr. And Mrs. Sadler resided there. And in later years, 13 Christie also resided there. Well, Bill Sadler, the son of 14 Dr. Sadler, he lived there too. 15 Q. Now, when you joined The Forum in 1941, you said you went 16 and you had to speak with Dr. Sadler -- 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. -- to see if you were serious. Do you recall that 19 conversation? 20 A. Not specific words and sentences, no. Just in general 21 ideas like that. 22 Q. Was he comfortable that you were sincere? 23 A. Was he what? 24 Q. Was he comfortable with your sincerity? 25 A. Oh, yes. And he had known me for many, many years, which 00655 {10:17:59am} 01 always helps. But, yes, he was comfortable with me. 02 Q. So he permitted you to join? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And -- well, let's stop a minute. Are you familiar with a 05 document called The History of the Urantia Movement? 06 A. I have read it. 07 Q. Do you, in fact, have a copy? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And tell me about the condition of that copy. 10 A. The condition of it? You mean -- 11 Q. Well, was it printed yesterday? 12 A. Oh, no, it's old and wrinkled and turning slightly yellow 13 from age, if that's what you're talking about, with condition. 14 Q. That's what I'm talking about. 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Do you recall -- because I've seen it as well -- do you 17 recall the paper clip? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Unless it was the one of my records which I had put in my 21 boxes that left the imprint of a paper clip on the paper. 22 Q. Do you recall the date on that document? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. Is it -- Would you say it's an old document? 25 A. Old is a relative term, but, yes, I'd say it has been 00656 {10:19:15am} 01 around for a very good portion of my lifetime. And if you want 02 my age, I'll give it. 03 Q. That's all right. That's all right. We'll do the math. 04 In that document, you're familiar with the document that 05 you have? 06 A. Uh-huh. 07 Q. And -- 08 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Could you pull up Plaintiff's 8, 09 Michael Foundation 8? 10 MR. ABOWITZ: We found a better copy of that, 11 actually. 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: She's not going to read from it, 13 so I'm just going to show it to her. 14 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I didn't hear. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: I found a more legible copy of it last 16 night, Judge. It might be easier for the witness to see. 17 THE COURT: Do you wish to substitute -- 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: She's not going to read it, Your 19 Honor. She's just going to take a look at it. 20 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, counsel. 21 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Could you turn around, Ms. Harries, 22 to your -- to my right? 23 A. Do you want me to walk out? 24 Q. No, no, ma'am. You can just turn behind you. 25 THE COURT: There's another copy. 00657 {10:20:13am} 01 A. Oh, okay. 02 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Does that look similar to portions 03 of -- 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. -- your document? 06 A. Yes, it does. Yes. 07 Q. Do you recognize that? 08 A. I recognize it. 09 Q. Do you recall when you joined The Forum what the 10 membership was, roughly? 11 A. Perhaps somewhere around 70 people, and that's active 12 members. There were members that had dropped away or died. 13 But not necessarily 70 at meetings every Sunday. 14 Q. And do you recall, back when you started attending in 1938 15 how many papers had The Forum discussed? When I say "papers," 16 I refer to the papers that are now in The Urantia Book. And I 17 don't need an exact number. 18 A. They certainly had discussed any and all that they had 19 received by that time and I don't know what number had been 20 received then. None of the papers were complete. Everything 21 was added to over the years as people asked questions and then 22 those questions were answered and added into the Urantia Papers 23 to make the whole that we have now in The Urantia Book. So it 24 has grown over the years. 25 Q. And you recall those questions when you started attending 00658 {10:21:54am} 01 meetings in 1938? 02 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you today any specific 03 question that was asked. I know that my father spent hours and 04 weeks and years typing up questions to submit to Dr. Sadler so 05 that the questions could then be submitted and answers 06 received. 07 Q. Did you ever submit questions? 08 A. No. 09 Q. Why? Is there a reason? 10 A. I was too young. It never occurred to me at that time. 11 Q. When you joined The Forum as opposed to attending meetings 12 in 1941, were there papers still being received and questions 13 still being asked? 14 A. Oh, yes, yes, all the time. 15 Q. Tell me -- we've talked about the individual members of 16 The Contact Commission. Tell me about The Contact Commission 17 itself. What was their -- what did they do at these meetings? 18 A. You mean as The Contact Commission? 19 Q. Yes, ma'am. 20 A. Whenever Dr. Sadler contacted them to let them know that 21 there was going to be a contact through this man, they all got 22 together and they went over to the home of the man and they got 23 more information. They had submitted the questions, answers 24 had come to the questions that were submitted, and then these 25 answers with the questions that were given were included in the 00659 {10:23:38am} 01 Urantia Papers that were already in existence. So these papers 02 constantly grew in length and in content over the years that 03 they were being prepared. 04 Q. Now, did anybody force you to join The Forum? 05 A. No. 06 Q. What was your father's reaction when you told him you 07 wanted to join The Forum? 08 A. I think that both my mother and my father just assumed 09 that I would be interested because they were so interested. 10 And so when I -- it wasn't a big deal of saying, "I want to be 11 a member," and, "Oh, really?" It was just a natural part of 12 life. 13 Q. Did you pay anything to join The Forum? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Were you compensated in any way -- 16 A. No. 17 Q. -- for taking part in these meetings? 18 A. Huh-uh. No one was. 19 Q. Do you know if the Contact Commissioners were compensated 20 in any way? 21 A. I know that they were not. 22 Q. Now, you mentioned some questions and you've mentioned you 23 can't recall specific questions. 24 A. You mean that were submitted? 25 Q. Yes. 00660 {10:25:00am} 01 A. No, I don't recall any specific questions. I merely know 02 that there were a lot of them. 03 Q. Do you recall, were the questions submitted in writing to 04 The Contact Commission? 05 A. Yes, at least my father's were. I know that he always 06 typed them up and submitted them, so I assume that the rest 07 were. 08 Q. Tell me, when were the questions submitted? 09 A. As soon as the person thought of them and asked Dr. Sadler 10 to include those questions. 11 Q. Well, what time did the Sunday meeting normally start? 12 A. They started in different form many many long years even 13 before my father and mother were members because originally it 14 was merely a group of professional people who got together on 15 Sunday afternoon at Dr. Sadler and Dr. Lena's home for a cup of 16 tea and perhaps some sandwiches and cake and some very 17 interesting discussions about all sorts of topics. It evolved 18 slowly from that into things that became far more spiritual and 19 more about God and not merely scientific things. 20 Q. Well, now, I'm speaking specifically about on Sundays. Do 21 you recall if they started in the morning or afternoon, the 22 meetings? 23 A. The meetings started at 1 o'clock and they lasted for an 24 hour and we would have about 15 minutes intermission and go 25 back for the second hour and then that was the close of the 00661 {10:26:42am} 01 meeting. 02 Q. Well, what happened in the first hour, generally? 03 A. What happened when? 04 Q. What happened during the first hour? 05 A. Oh, the paper that was then in the -- in any amount that 06 was in the possession of Dr. Sadler was read out loud the first 07 half, everyone listened, thought what they were going to ask 08 questions about. And then the second half, when we came back 09 into the room, we could ask questions and get answers and have 10 discussion. 11 Q. Now, when you say ask questions and get answers, these 12 were -- 13 A. I mean ask Dr. Sadler or Christie or whoever happened to 14 be read- -- or Bill Sadler, whoever happened to be reading the 15 paper and leading the meeting that particular afternoon. 16 Q. You'd ask them, for instance, maybe what they thought? 17 A. Uh-huh, or, "What does that mean?" or, "Does this mean 18 such and such?" or, "Is this connected to something else?" 19 That type of question. 20 Q. And then you said that the questions could be submitted to 21 The Contact Commission to go to the subject. Were they 22 submitted -- I mean, were they submitted at any time? 23 A. This was a separate type of submitting questions. The 24 secondary questions, which we would ask on Sunday afternoon, 25 were all verbal and answered right then or discussed right then 00662 {10:28:09am} 01 and there. 02 Q. Do you recall when your father used to submit questions? 03 Did he do it at the end of the second part of the meeting? 04 A. My father spent hours and days and weeks and months and 05 years writing questions and typing them and submitting them. 06 Q. So at all times? 07 A. All along. 08 Q. Do you recall in 1941 when you joined, was there any 09 discussion in The Forum between the Contact Commissioners about 10 publishing these papers at some point? 11 A. I always felt that it was always considered that 12 eventually this would be published. It may not have -- when I 13 say "always," it may not have been in the very, very, very 14 beginning but very soon it turned to that and it was decided 15 that this would all be typed up and submitted to printers to 16 have plates made and have it put in book form. 17 Q. Now, at some point after you joined in 1941 -- do you 18 recall when the book was actually published? 19 A. 1955, and I believe it was October. 20 Q. So in 1941 until 1955, do you recall any request for 21 funds? 22 A. Really, you could call it a request for funds but what I 23 always thought of it as was helping get the money together for 24 the large costs that would be incurred to make plates. The 25 printing was quite different back then. They made heavy metal 00663 {10:29:58am} 01 plates to do the printing from that and you had to have all of 02 the plates set, typeset, and then made into the solid plates, 03 and that cost a lot of money. So, people were asked to donate 04 money or prepay for as many books as they would like to 05 purchase at the time that they were finally printed and that 06 money was all taken and put together and used for the costs 07 incurred. 08 Q. Do you recall if your mother or father contributed any 09 money? 10 A. They did, and I did. 11 Q. Do you recall how much you did? 12 A. On my little allowance? 5 or $10, I think it was. That 13 was a lot of money to me. 14 Q. Was there anyone in The Forum and Contact Commission, for 15 that matter, who didn't want to publish the papers? 16 A. We were all so anxious to have it published so that it 17 could be out into the rest of the world and we could talk about 18 it with friends and relatives and so that we could have it to 19 read and study any time we wanted. 20 Q. Well, what do you mean by that? Couldn't you read and 21 study the papers any time you wanted? 22 A. If we went to 533, yes, we could sit there and read the 23 papers but we could not take them out and read them at home or 24 anywhere else. 25 Q. Do you draw a correlation between that requirement to read 00664 {10:31:30am} 01 the papers at 533 Diversey and the oath you took, was there a 02 similar purpose? 03 A. Yes, because until such time as the publication of the 04 book, it was all discussed and studied within the confines of 05 533. It was not in the public domain at that point. 06 Q. And I think you mentioned earlier, could it have been that 07 one of the reasons was the papers weren't completed as yet? 08 A. Oh, definitely. 09 Q. Now, when we talk about publishing The Urantia Book, who 10 was the decision made by to publish these papers? 11 A. As to when to go ahead and do it or do you mean in 12 general? 13 Q. In general. 14 A. I think everyone wanted to have it published but it would 15 have been The Contact Commission mostly: Dr. Sadler, Dr. Lena, 16 Christie, and the Kelloggs, Bill Sadler. 17 Q. At some point was it decided that an organization should 18 be formalized or something should be done to help or to manage 19 this publication? 20 A. No one wanted all of us to stop at the time of 21 publication. We enjoyed our study on Sunday afternoon so much 22 that we all wanted to be able to continue going down to 533 on 23 Sunday afternoons in order to read and discuss the papers and 24 it became family. We also had our wonderful social 25 relationships too. 00665 {10:33:20am} 01 Q. Do you recall -- You said the book was published in 02 October, I think, of 1955? 03 A. Uh-huh. 04 Q. Do you recall the day the books came? 05 A. Vividly. Everyone was so excited. They were nearly 06 beside themselves. We had been told that the books were there 07 and we could come pick them up, and people had prepaid and 08 ordered them by the case load, and that Sunday they arrived 09 with their cars and their vans and their trucks and they carted 10 out these big boxes of books. We were just all so excited we 11 could hardly contain ourselves. 12 Q. Is there anything you'd like to add to what you've said 13 today, tell the jury about? 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I object to that. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Thank you very much, Ms. Harries. 17 THE COURT: Cross-examination? 18 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 MR. HILL: Actually, Your Honor, would this be a good 20 time to break? 21 THE COURT: Well the cross-examination be extensive 22 or should we take a break? 23 MR. ABOWITZ: By the time that big hand gets to the 24 6, we'll be on our recess. 25 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, counselor. 00666 {10:34:38am} 01 CROSS-EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 03 Q. Good morning. How are you? 04 A. Good morning. Fine. Thank you. 05 Q. I would like to just go over one portion of the document 06 that was shown to you. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have exhibit 20 -- or the 20th 08 page of the exhibit that you just put up? I'm sorry. 09 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Your Honor. Is this water? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: May I pour? 12 THE COURT: You surely may. Be careful with the lid. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: May I help you? May I help you with 14 that? 15 THE WITNESS: I think I may have it. I may have 16 trouble getting it back. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: May I help, Your Honor? 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: You're welcome. 20 Let me do it this way. May I approach the witness, Your 21 Honor, and may I put it up on the viewer? 22 THE COURT: Sure. 23 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I'm going to show you the 20th page of 24 that exhibit which is called Receiving The Completed Papers. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: There we go. Would you scroll it down, 00667 {10:36:12am} 01 please, so the ladies and gentlemen of the jury can see this? 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I, Your Honor? 03 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, ma'am, if I may, let me show you 04 this. You can see that easier than looking at that. 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Is that part of the document that you recognized earlier 07 this morning? 08 A. May I take a moment to read it? 09 Q. Sure. Please do. 10 A. All right. 11 Q. Do you recognize that as part of that old document that 12 you have at home -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- that's falling apart? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Your Honor? 17 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Is that in good enough shape to read 18 from? We've all been having a tough time -- 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. -- reading that. 21 A. Would you like me to read that out loud? 22 Q. No, no. I just want you to read these last two sentences 23 for me. 24 A. "The first three parts were completed and certified to us 25 in A.D. 1934. The Jesus papers were not so delivered to us 00668 {10:37:51am} 01 until 1935." 02 Q. Okay. That's all I have. Thank you for coming. 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I have one quick question. 04 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 05 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 06 Q. Obviously that says what you read. Do you have any doubt 07 in your mind that when you started attending Forum meetings in 08 1938 that questions were still being asked? 09 A. I can't remember specifically any question that was asked. 10 Q. No, I don't mean specific questions. I mean do you recall 11 generally that at the meetings Forum members submitted 12 questions? 13 A. Oh, yes. 14 Q. Okay. And that was in 1938? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. And do you recall when you started attending meetings in 17 1938 that partial papers were still coming in? 18 A. Yes, they were. 19 Q. Okay. And Dr. Sadler would read sometimes, I think you 20 testified earlier, partial papers? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Okay. And is that also true in 1941 when you joined The 23 Forum? 24 A. Yes, it was. 25 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No further questions. 00669 {10:39:01am} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Briefly, Judge? 02 THE COURT: Pardon? 03 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, briefly? 04 THE COURT: Sure. 05 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 06 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 07 Q. The old document that the lawyer asked you about that you 08 have at home is the history of the Urantia movement? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And it's believed that that came from Dr. Sadler? 11 A. In what way do you mean came from Dr. Sadler? He handed 12 it to me, yes. 13 Q. All right. It came from him. And you understood that to 14 be his view of the history of the Urantia movement? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that's a copy of what you have at home? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. And that's what he says about completion and certification 19 of the papers; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. Yes. 21 Q. Thank you. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: That's all I have, Judge? 23 THE COURT: You may step down. 24 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll 00670 {10:39:58am} 01 take a recess for 15 minutes. Be back in the jury box 15 02 minutes from right now. And I'll remind you again of my 03 previous admonition. 04 Everyone please stand. 05 Court's in recess. 06 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 07 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 08 THE JURY:) 09 THE COURT: Be seated, please. 10 Call your next witness, Mr. Hill. 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I call Mary Lou Hales. 12 THE COURT: Would you raise your right hand and be 13 sworn, please. 14 (WITNESS SWORN) 15 MARY LOU HALES, 16 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 17 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 18 THE COURT: If you can, make your way through the 19 obstacle course here to the witness chair. 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I pour some water? 21 THE COURT: Surely. 22 Would you state your full name and spell your last name 23 into the microphone, please. 24 THE WITNESS: Mary Lou Hales, H-A-L-E-S. 25 00671 {11:00:26am} 01 DIRECT EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 03 Q. Ms. Hales, would you please tell the jury a little bit 04 about yourself. 05 A. Well, I'm 92-and-a-half years old, to begin with. And I 06 grew up in Illinois, outside of Chicago, and lived there most 07 all of my life. I was married and engaged in 1932 just before 08 I became acquainted with these papers. And my husband and I 09 have lived in Winnetka for some years and I'm still living in 10 my home. My husband -- 11 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me, Your Honor. May I ask that 12 the microphone -- 13 THE COURT: Yes. Pull that microphone a little 14 closer to you, please. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 A. My husband and I lived in Winnetka for some 60 years and 17 he has passed away and my daughter has passed away also. 18 And what else would you like to know? 19 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) That's a good start. You're 92. 20 Do you recall the year you were born, Ms. Hales? 21 A. Do I recall the year I was born? 22 Q. Yes, ma'am. 23 A. Well, I was born in 1908. I don't recall it particularly. 24 Q. You said you became engaged in 1932? 25 A. Uh-huh. 00672 {11:02:27am} 01 Q. To whom did you become engaged? 02 A. To William Hales, and we had grown up together 03 practically. We met in Latin class in high school and became 04 acquainted at that point and went together for -- from then on 05 really. Not entirely. We had other dates also but we went 06 together for a long time. And he went off to college, to 07 Williams College in Massachusetts at that point and I went to 08 Beloit College in Wisconsin, so we had our separations which 09 were interesting, but we've known each other for a long time. 10 Q. And in 1932, you became engaged to Mr. Hales? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Can you tell me generally about the engagement and what 13 occurred subsequently? 14 A. Yes. We were -- well, we loved to dance, my husband and 15 I, and we went on weekends, we would go down to either the 16 Drake Hotel or Edgewater Beach and go dancing. And in 1972 we 17 went off for one of our weekend dances and while we were at the 18 table Bill began to tell me about something that was very 19 important to him, apparently, and he was telling me about the 20 group that he belonged to and he was hoping I would be 21 interested in joining also. 22 So, I heard part of what he was saying but we were rather 23 close to the orchestra and I couldn't hear everything he was 24 saying, but it surely sounded like he was very interested and 25 he was very anxious to have me be interested in. So I said, of 00673 {11:04:34am} 01 course, "Yes, I'll be happy to go and visit this group if you'd 02 like me to." So that's what we did. The next week, I think it 03 was, he took me to this group that he had been going to for 04 some years, and his mother and father also had been going 05 there, to listen to some lectures, and so I went with him and 06 was introduced to Dr. Sadler and some friends of his that were 07 there. And that's how I learned about the Urantia Papers. 08 Q. Now, when you went to -- it's 533 Diversey; correct? 09 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. And when you first went there, is that when you met 11 Dr. Sadler? 12 A. I had met him previously, I think, because he and his wife 13 were friends of Bill's mother and father, so I met them at 14 Mr. and Mrs. Hale's home. 15 Q. And can you tell me a little bit about Dr. Sadler, what 16 type of person he was? 17 A. Oh, well, he was a very nice person. He had been a 18 surgeon and a doctor and then had become a psychiatrist and he 19 was rather very jovial, and looked like a little -- well, sort 20 of a little powder pigeon, but a very -- of course very 21 intelligent and a very interesting person. And Dr. Lena, his 22 wife, also was a very nice person and very friendly. And 23 because they had known the Hales for quite sometime, you felt 24 as though you had known them for sometime too. I felt as 25 though I had known them for quite sometime. But they were 00674 {11:06:25am} 01 really wonderful people and you could tell they were 02 intelligent and were really very service-minded, I would say, 03 and wanted to help their fellow man. I think everyone seemed 04 to like them, I would think. We all did. 05 Q. Do you have an opinion -- I mean, I take it you got to 06 know him very well while you were in The Forum? 07 A. Uh-huh. 08 Q. Do you have an opinion as to his -- whether he was an 09 honest man? 10 A. Oh, yes, of course. Uh-huh. 11 Q. How about his wife, Dr. Lena Sadler? 12 A. She was a lovely person and a very fine doctor, too. Very 13 fine. 14 Q. Did you -- Now, there's been some talk about a group 15 called The Contact Commission. 16 A. Yes. Bill, I think, told me about that. 17 Q. Once you joined The Forum, did you come to realize that 18 there was such a group? 19 A. Yes. Yes. We were told about them. 20 Q. Do you know whether Christie, Emma Christensen, was a 21 Contact Commissioner? 22 A. Yes, she was, uh-huh. 23 Q. And the Kelloggs, Wilfred Kellogg and his wife? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you get to know those three people well? 00675 {11:07:38am} 01 A. Yes, quite well, because we would go to meetings every 02 Sunday, I would go with Bill and we would go to lectures on 03 Sundays and usually they would all be there. 04 Q. And similar to what I asked you about Dr. Sadler, were 05 they likeable people? 06 A. Oh, yes. I was a little in awe of them, I must say, 07 because we were the youngest -- Bill and I were the youngest 08 members of the study group or lecture group, and so we were in 09 a little bit in awe of these older people who were very 10 intelligent and very interesting people. 11 Q. Now, was this all -- when you first went into The Forum 12 and had your interview with Dr. Sadler, was this approximately 13 in 1932? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Near your engagement? 16 A. Uh-huh, just after we were engaged. I had to read about 17 32 papers before I could become a member really, a member of 18 the lecture group, but I did drive over there and read the 19 papers and finally was taken into the group. 20 Q. You said you had to read 32 papers before you could join 21 the group. Why was that? 22 A. Well, the group had been -- they had read them ahead of me 23 because they were members earlier than I was so they had read 24 32 papers by the time I got into the group and I had to catch 25 up with them. So that's why I went over to read them. 00676 {11:09:15am} 01 Q. Do you recall anything generally about the interview with 02 Dr. Sadler? 03 A. Did I -- pardon me? Would you repeat? 04 Q. Yes. Let me restate it. I'm sorry. 05 Do you recall the interview with Dr. Sadler? Do you 06 recall that it occurred? 07 A. Oh, yes, I think so. 08 Q. Do you have a general recollection of what was discussed? 09 A. No, not really. I think he simply told me about the group 10 and what their point was, I believe, in having these papers and 11 why they were reading from them, because they found them so 12 interesting and worthwhile. 13 Q. Now, you said in 19- -- when you joined in 1932, there 14 were 32 papers you had to read to catch up on. 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Do you know how many papers are in The Urantia Book? 17 A. 196 or something like that. 18 Q. So, after you joined in 1932, there were 32 papers to 19 start, did more papers start arriving while you were at the 20 Forum? 21 A. Yes, they did come -- some more papers did come, I 22 believe, after I got into The Forum, more papers. 23 Q. And do you recall much about the actual meetings? That 24 was a long time ago and I don't need specifics, but do you 25 recall the meetings on Sunday? 00677 {11:10:58am} 01 A. Oh, yes. 02 Q. And do you recall how they were structured? And let me 03 explain. Do you know when they started? 04 A. Yes. 2 o'clock, I think it was, they started. 05 Q. And do you recall, were there two portions -- I mean, was 06 there a break in between during the meeting? 07 A. Yes, I think there was, as I recall. We'd read part of 08 the paper from 2:00 to about 3:00 and we'd have a little break 09 and then we'd go back in and they would continue reading the 10 paper and finish it for that afternoon. 11 Q. And do you recall whether you or your husband submitted 12 questions? 13 A. Yes, we did. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Did you submit many questions? 15 A. I submitted some but I was really quite so new with this 16 whole thing that I didn't -- I think I wasn't smart enough to 17 ask too many questions, but Bill asked quite a few. 18 Q. Now, let's move ahead a little bit. Do you recall when 19 there came a time that a decision was made or a decision was 20 being made that perhaps these papers should be published? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Do you recall that? 23 A. Uh-huh, yes. 24 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were asked to contribute 25 or to buy books ahead of time? 00678 {11:12:38am} 01 A. Uh-huh, yes, I did. We were asked to begin contributing 02 because when the book was to be published, we'd have enough 03 money to pay for it. 04 Q. Do you recall how much you or your husband contributed? 05 A. I don't know the amount of money but we bought a whole 06 case of books. After it was published, we all -- so many of 07 us, all members of the group, arrived at 533 and we all came 08 out with a great big case of books to take home and give to our 09 friends. But I don't know how much money we gave. 10 Q. Do you recall whether your father-in-law, your 11 husband's -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. I'm sorry? 14 A. Yes. Well, Bill's father met with Dr. Sadler one day and 15 wanted to, well, pay for all the books. I mean, he wanted to 16 pay for the publication and the doctor said no, that he would 17 much rather have everybody in the group contribute rather than 18 have one large sum from one person. So that's how we all 19 contributed, and father Hales gave his share but not the whole 20 thing. 21 Q. Do you know why Mr. Sadler didn't want Mr. Hales to 22 contribute the full amount? 23 A. Well, because I think he felt it would be wiser to have 24 everyone contribute to this particular cause and I think he 25 just felt everyone should have a part in it, really. 00679 {11:14:33am} 01 Q. Do you recall -- and I don't want a precise year -- but do 02 you recall generally whether or not there were discussions 03 about publishing the Urantia Papers in some sort of book form 04 before the book was actually published? 05 A. I don't remember precisely but I'm sure there was 06 discussion because I think that was probably the goal, to get 07 these papers published into book form. 08 Q. Did you -- Did your fiancé force you to join The Forum? 09 A. No. No, indeed. No, he invited me to join and because I 10 had faith in him -- I was not too, you know, particularly 11 interested in this strange occurrence but because my husband- 12 to-be was interested in it and I was interested in him, I did 13 what he would like me to do, so I said yes, I would join. 14 Q. Did at some point, did that reluctance or, you know, 15 uncertainty about what was going on change? 16 A. Oh, yes. After I heard a few papers and had met all the 17 other Forum members, I became quite interested and very willing 18 to attend the meetings, and we went every Sunday, really, 19 practically every Sunday, and I became more interested. The 20 more I heard, the more interested I was. 21 Q. Are you still -- Do you still read The Urantia Book? 22 A. Uh-huh, yes, I do. 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I don't have any more questions. 24 Thank you very much, Ms. Hales. 25 THE COURT: Mr. Abowitz? 00680 {11:16:28am} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: I have nothing, Your Honor. Thank you. 02 THE COURT: You may step down and you'll be excused. 03 THE WITNESS: Pardon me? 04 THE COURT: You'll be excused. 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may she have some help? 06 THE COURT: Yes. 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'm derelict in my duty. 08 THE COURT: As I say, it's a bit of an obstacle 09 course. 10 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 11 THE COURT: Call your next witness, Mr. Hill. 12 MR. HILL: Your Honor, we're going to read a brief 13 portion from the deposition of Helen Carlson taken in The 14 Urantia Foundation/Maaherra case. 15 THE COURT: Who will be reading? 16 MR. HILL: If it's okay with Your Honor, I will -- 17 THE COURT: You'll do both? 18 MR. HILL: Actually, I'll just read the questions and 19 the answers in the interest of time. 20 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, let me 21 explain again, as I did earlier, that Counselor Hill will be 22 reading from a deposition which is a sworn statement taken of a 23 witness, questions and answers that are sworn to and answered 24 and typed down and certified. The Federal Rules of Civil 25 Procedure allow that to be done instead of requiring the 00681 {11:17:56am} 01 witness to be here live. 02 You're not to discount the testimony simply because it 03 comes to you in deposition form but give it such weight and 04 value as you deem it appropriate to receive. 05 MR. HILL: Thank you, Your Honor. 06 This is the deposition of Helen Carlson that was taken on 07 June 29th, 1994 in the case Urantia Foundation vs. Kristen 08 Maaherra in the United States District Court for the District 09 of Arizona, case number 91-0325. 10 (DEPOSITION EXCERPTS OF HELEN CARLSON WERE READ TO THE 11 JURY, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN 12 COURT:) 13 MR. HILL: I think that's it, Your Honor. I just 14 want to check for any more of their designations. 15 That's all. 16 THE COURT: Any counter-designations, counsel? 17 MR. HILL: I read their counters. 18 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 19 MR. HILL: Peter? 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I call Carolyn Kendall, Your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: Come right up and raise your right hand 23 and be sworn, please. 24 (WITNESS SWORN) 25 00682 {11:33:03am} 01 CAROLYN KENDALL, 02 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 03 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 04 THE COURT: If you can work your way around the 05 obstacle course to the witness chair here, I'll ask you to 06 state your full name and spell your last name, please. You can 07 adjust that microphone, that lower one, if you need to. 08 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. My name is Carolyn Kendall. 09 I was originally Carolyn Bowman-Kendall. 10 THE COURT: Spell your last name, please. 11 THE WITNESS: K-E-N-D-A-L-L. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Schoenthaler. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 15 Q. Would you please continue introducing yourself to the 16 jury. 17 A. Okay. I'm from Wheeling, Illinois. I live there with my 18 husband, Tom Kendall, of 48 years. We have five children, ages 19 39 to 47. We have seven grandchildren, ages five months to 23 20 years. I am employed part-time with Illinois Association For 21 Gifted Children in my general home area. I have worked with 22 accounting firms. I've worked for The Fellowship For Readers 23 of The Urantia Book. I was -- I worked for the school 24 district -- local school district office in my hometown for 25 about 10 years. 00683 {11:35:02am} 01 Probably the most interesting job I've ever had was in the 02 office of Dr. William S. Sadler back in 1952 to '54 and then 03 again in 1957 where I performed general administrative work, 04 including administering psychological tests, assisting with 05 shock treatments. I did proofreading and editing for the 06 manuscripts that Dr. Sadler wrote. He was an author of 42 07 books and he was -- I did quite a bit of billing and general 08 office work during that time. I was employed primarily as a 09 receptionist. 10 Q. Thank you. 11 You say you worked for Dr. Sadler in the '50s? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When did you first become aware of The Urantia Book? 14 A. On -- well, it wasn't The Urantia Book at the time. They 15 were Urantia Papers. The first time I ever heard the word 16 "Urantia" was on October 14th, 1951 when I was just short of my 17 19th birthday. 18 Q. And since the time you first heard it, have you become 19 familiar with the book? 20 A. Oh, yes, yes. I've been a constant reader since that 21 time. 22 Q. Have you held positions in any organizations -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- for readers of The Urantia Book? 25 A. Yes. Well, beginning in 1956 I was a member of the First 00684 {11:37:02am} 01 Urantia Society. 02 Q. May I ask you what the First Urantia Society is? 03 A. It's a membership group of readers. In fact, it was the 04 first Society of Urantia Brotherhood. There are approximately 05 25, 30 societies now and ours was the first in Chicago. I 06 continue to be a member of that society. In fact, I'm 07 currently the president and have served another term as 08 president prior to this one, about 10, 12 years ago. 09 As far as Urantia Brotherhood goes, which is the parent 10 organization of these societies, I was fraternal relations 11 committee chair and I served three years as vice president of 12 The Brotherhood. 13 The Brotherhood became known as The Fellowship for Readers 14 of The Urantia Book in 1989 and I have continued to be -- serve 15 on committees of The Fellowship since then. I'm currently on 16 the publication committee of The Fellowship. I do editing -- 17 Q. What -- 18 A. -- and some writing. 19 Q. I'm sorry. Please continue. 20 A. Okay. I need some water. 21 Q. Sure. 22 A. I'm a little dry here. 23 Q. Ms. Kendall, let me bring you back to the earlier days. 24 You mentioned Urantia Brotherhood and I think the jury has 25 heard a little bit about that. I understand there's another 00685 {11:38:48am} 01 organization that is actually now a party in this case: Urantia 02 Foundation. 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Let's talk about Urantia Brotherhood and Urantia 05 Foundation. 06 A. Uh-huh. 07 Q. When was Urantia Foundation formed? 08 A. 1950. Its headquarters was located at 333 North Michigan 09 Avenue in Chicago. It was a separate organization from Urantia 10 Brotherhood in that its makeup consisted of five trustees, 11 whereas The Brotherhood was a social outreach coordinatative 12 type of organization. 13 The Foundation, it was understood, had -- its primary 14 purpose was to publish The Urantia Book, to translate the book, 15 and to protect the book. Whereas The Brotherhood and its 16 successor organization, newly-named organization, its purpose 17 is social and outreach and to coordinate functions and 18 activities and to organize educational programs. 19 Q. Now, The Urantia Foundation, when this started in 1950, it 20 has remained pretty much the same form until today? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And The Brotherhood was organized after Urantia 23 Foundation? 24 A. Yes, in 1955, in January. 25 Q. Okay. And I think there's been some testimony but I want 00686 {11:40:17am} 01 you to go into it. The Brotherhood was organized in 1955 and 02 continued in its form with societies until approximately when? 03 A. It still continues. It just has a different name. 04 Q. Let's go back to 1951 -- 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. -- when you heard Urantia. How did you hear the term? 07 A. Well, I asked my father if I could join The Forum, my 08 father, having been a member of The Forum since 1923. And I 09 had developed an interest in spiritual ideas, religious ideas 10 that I at the time felt were not being addressed by the church 11 that I was attending. And I had a boyfriend who began telling 12 me about religious and spiritual and philosophical ideas, so I 13 kind of awakened to some of these interests, so I did ask my 14 father what The Forum was all about that he had been attending 15 for many years. So, he -- I said, "Well, I'd like to join," 16 and he managed to hide his elation because he had been involved 17 with this for so long and it meant so much to him, and he said 18 "Yes, I'll make an appointment with Dr. Sadler and you can go 19 down and be interviewed and decide whether you would like to be 20 a part of it." So he did, within a few days, make the 21 appointment and I went to meet with Doctor on Sunday morning, 22 October 14th, 1951. 23 Q. And when you went to meet Dr. Sadler, had you met him 24 before? 25 A. No, I had never met him. 00687 {11:42:21am} 01 Q. You say your father had been attending Forum meetings? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. How do you know that? 04 A. Well, he disappeared on Sunday afternoons and he -- he and 05 my mother occasionally discussed the fact that he was going to 06 a meeting that day, going to The Forum. I had no idea what 07 The Forum was. I had never heard the name Urantia until the 08 day of my interview. 09 Q. So you had heard about The Forum? 10 A. Yes, yes. 11 Q. Did you have any understanding as to what went on at these 12 Forum meetings? 13 A. Well, I knew it had to do with religion, spiritual things, 14 the nature of God. It wasn't until after I began reading 15 The Urantia Book that I realized that my father had been 16 teaching me my entire life. So I was raised on the teachings 17 of The Urantia Book without attribution. 18 Q. And let's go now to when you actually first met 19 Dr. Sadler. I think you gave the date. Let's stick with the 20 generalities. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Tell me about the meeting. What was the context? I mean, 23 was it at 533 Diversey? 24 A. Yes, it was at his apartment, which was on the third floor 25 of the building at 533 Diversey. As I say, it was on a Sunday 00688 {11:43:41am} 01 morning. He had been described to me before I went as somewhat 02 portly and, which he was, and he was very warm and friendly. 03 Having known my father for all those years, he was, I'm sure, 04 interested in meeting the daughter, and that I was evidencing 05 some interest, and he welcomed me warmly and sat me down and 06 offered me a cold drink and he proceeded to tell me a story 07 about the origin of the Urantia Papers, how this had all begun 08 and how things had developed over the years, what tests he had 09 attempted to apply to determine their validity and their 10 authenticity, and the general idea that it was going to be a 11 published book at some point. 12 Q. Now, let's go back to something you said. You mentioned 13 tests to determine authenticity or validity. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. What about that, what did he mean by that? 16 A. Well, he had a background in experiencing people who were 17 claiming -- who were getting -- claiming to experience psychic 18 phenomena. Many of these people were, he determined later, 19 were frauds, they were either self-deluded or they were just 20 outright deliberate frauds. They would hear voices, there was 21 automatic writing, there was automatic speaking. He had great 22 experience in dealing with these kinds of people and, in fact, 23 this had impelled him to study psychiatry with Sigmund Freud to 24 determine more about how the subconscious mind works. So, when 25 he encountered this thing, he felt that sooner or later he 00689 {11:46:11am} 01 would be able to determine the basis for this. 02 Q. He was a debunker? 03 A. Oh, yes, yes. I mean, he had a wide reputation for 04 debunking mediums, spirit mediums. 05 Q. To show they were false? 06 A. He wrote many books on this issue as well, and articles. 07 Q. When we say "debunking," what does that mean? 08 A. To prove that they're frauds, that they're not genuine, 09 that they're phonies. 10 Q. Did he express his opinion about whether this phenomena in 11 regard to the Urantia Papers was a fraud? 12 A. Well, at first he thought it probably was another one but 13 that it was very difficult to get to the bottom of it. He 14 said, "I couldn't figure out how they did it. We tried and 15 tried and we finally concluded that there was something genuine 16 here." And he said, "I couldn't beat it." 17 Q. Let's talk about the interview. You mentioned that he 18 told you -- he told you a story? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. Can you relate, fairly briefly, what that story was? 21 A. Well, he didn't give the exact year that he encountered 22 this. He said about I think it was 40 years ago at that point 23 he said, "When we were young physicians, my wife and I were 24 living in a temporary apartment waiting for our home to be 25 ready and a woman came knocking on the door and said that her 00690 {11:48:00am} 01 husband was behaving strangely, and since she heard we were 02 physicians, could we please come and look in upon him and try 03 to find out what was going on with him." He said, "We went 04 downstairs," and I don't know whether it was in the same 05 building or in the next building, but he said, "We saw a man 06 who was asleep or appeared to be asleep. We couldn't wake 07 him." They said that he -- that there were materials that were 08 there in his handwriting but later when the man woke up he 09 determined that he had never written them. He was not 10 responsible for their appearance. This continued for months 11 and years, these materials appeared, the man didn't write them, 12 they determined it was in his handwriting. There were voices 13 that came through him. They were not his voice. Much of the 14 content was of a very high order, spiritual, religious. He was 15 -- Dr. Sadler was very suspicious of this for the entire -- 16 during the entire investigative procedure. They called in 17 physicians to study him, to apply tests. They hypnotized him. 18 They followed him around, they did all kinds of word tests to 19 see if there was anything in the subconscious mind that was -- 20 that resembled in any way what anything that he was producing 21 or appeared to be producing. 22 Q. And the story at least peaked your interest, I take it? 23 A. Oh, yes, I was curious. I had never heard anything like 24 this before. Of course, I was pretty young. 25 Q. How old were you? 00691 {11:50:07am} 01 A. I was almost 19 years old. 02 Q. In 1951; correct? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. At what point did you join The Forum after that? 05 A. That day. Yes, he said -- well, I said, "Yes, I'll" -- he 06 said, "Do you think you'll be interested in joining?" and I 07 said, "Yes," I signed the roll, and I came to the first meeting 08 that afternoon. 09 Q. Now, at that point the papers were complete; is that 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I mean, what did they do at these meetings in 1951? 13 A. Well, the first meeting I attended was the Bestowals of 14 Christ Michael. It was the paper just prior to the beginning 15 of the fourth part of The Urantia Book which describes Jesus' 16 bestowals before he came to our world, and this was very 17 exciting to me. Bill Sadler read the paper in the first hour, 18 we went out for refreshments, came back, and the audience asked 19 questions in the second hour. And that was the extent of it 20 for two hours. 21 Q. Were these written questions they asked? 22 A. No, just hold up your hand. 23 Q. And then there would be some discussion regarding -- 24 A. Oh, yes, there was bantering, give-and-take. It was very 25 informal, very friendly, very entertaining. 00692 {11:51:32am} 01 Q. At what point -- you say you joined that day. At what 02 point did you decide or ask to be employed or did Dr. Sadler 03 ask you to work for him? 04 A. I think this was about six months later. Their then 05 receptionist, Lois Lockwood, decided that she wanted to work 06 somewhere else, so she announced that she was leaving. They 07 were interested in having someone who was a Forum member work 08 there because people would come in to order papers to be read 09 and they wanted someone who was familiar with The Urantia Book 10 to be employed there. 11 There was a secretary but she was not a reader. There was 12 another physician but she was not a reader. So they did want 13 someone who was a reader to be an employee there. 14 Q. How many people were actually employed in the day-to-day 15 runnings? 16 A. Dr. Sadler; the Kelloggs; the secretary, Ms. Hildebrand; 17 myself; they had someone that helped in -- two people that 18 helped with the shock treatments in the lower levels. 19 Q. So this was a doctor's office? 20 A. Yes, it was. The Chicago Institute of Research and 21 Diagnosis was the business name. 22 Q. Now, outside -- and you say you worked for him as a 23 receptionist? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Did you work for him in the capacity of his practice? 00693 {11:53:02am} 01 A. Oh, yes, yes. I greeted patients. I made them feel at 02 home. I took a little information from them. If required, I 03 administered psychological tests, the Minnesota Multiphasic 04 Personality Profile. 05 Q. And, now, where was this? 06 A. In the office. 07 Q. The office is in what building? 08 A. 533 Diversey on the first floor back in one of the -- one 09 of the small offices. 10 Q. So 533 Diversey was Dr. Sadler's home? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what floor was that? 13 A. That was the third floor. Bill Sadler and his family 14 lived on the second floor. The Forum met on the second floor 15 in the large room in the front part of the building. The 16 medical offices were on the first floor, and the area where 17 they gave the shock treatments was on the lower -- 18 Q. I think the jury has heard "533 Diversey" about a thousand 19 times but I don't think they know anything about the building. 20 Would you explain and tell them about the building. 21 A. Yes. It was the first steel-framed residence in the City 22 of Chicago. It was built in, I think, either the early 1920s 23 or the 19-teens. It was originally built as a medical office 24 and the man that built it was unable to keep the building so 25 Dr. Sadler purchased it because it would be ideal for his 00694 {11:54:45am} 01 medical practice and his home. 02 Q. Now, you said you worked as a receptionist, -- 03 A. Uh-huh. 04 Q. -- a helper in many forms for Dr. Sadler's practice. Did 05 you also work -- have work related to Urantia happenings? 06 A. Not at that time, no. Not until -- well, 1957 I worked 07 part-time on Saturdays. By that time, The Urantia Book was 08 published, The Brotherhood was in existence, and there were, 09 you know, general activities that were beginning to occur. 10 I know one thing I did was send out the 100 books to 11 foreign libraries and, you know, generally do the addresses and 12 get them ready for mailing. And I wrote a few letters as well. 13 Q. You mentioned that you underwent some sort of informal 14 interview process to join The Forum. 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Were you ever present when another interview took place? 17 A. Oh, yes. About four or five others after mine, and those 18 included my future husband when he joined The Forum. I sat in 19 with him then. My mother who had been a longtime holdout 20 refusing to join The Forum because she thought they were all 21 crazy, probably, and hadn't wanted anything to do with it. But 22 after my husband -- my boyfriend became involved, she thought, 23 "Well, maybe there is something." She thought he was a pretty 24 neat guy. So she decided that, yes, she would be interested in 25 joining. She was interviewed. My younger brother was 00695 {11:56:42am} 01 interviewed. And then after I worked there, was working there 02 for a while, there were at least two other Forum members who 03 brought friends or relatives in to be interviewed by Doctor 04 preparatory to joining The Forum. So I overheard all of those 05 interviews. 06 Q. Was there any similarity between the interviews? 07 A. Oh, yes, yes. I think he had a -- well, he didn't work 08 from notes but he had a script that he used which, as he told 09 me, he said, "I don't do the interview the same way twice," but 10 he said there are -- it depends on the person. Are they 11 interested, are they asking questions, are they lively? That 12 was one term he used. And he would add a little more here or 13 there or not perhaps tell the whole story that he might have 14 told somebody else. So he had a general story. 15 Q. Tell me about your father. 16 A. Okay. His name was Clarence Bowman. He came from 17 Williamsburg, Kentucky. He moved to Chicago when he was 14 18 years old. He became employed as a railway mail clerk and 19 worked on the B & O Railroad between Chicago and Pittsburgh, 20 and he had that job from 1914 until he retired in the early 21 1950s. 22 At the time of his retirement, he was generally believed 23 to be the oldest -- the longest serving railway mail clerk in 24 the service. He was largely self-educated. He had quit school 25 after the 6th grade when he moved to Chicago. He did later on 00696 {11:58:50am} 01 attend college courses. He took various -- He took 02 engineering courses, he took shorthand, he studied whatever 03 interested him. He was in the Army in World War I. He was 04 chosen to serve in President Wilson's honor guard when the 05 president came to Versailles. He married my mother in 1931. 06 They moved to Defiance, Ohio, where I was born, and lived there 07 until 1943 when, because of the war, he moved the family to 08 Chicago and we settled there and he resumed his involvement in 09 The Forum. 10 Q. So he was a Forum member. Do you know when he became a 11 Forum member? 12 A. Yes. In 192- -- I think it was in November of 1923. 13 Q. Do you have any knowledge regarding his -- about his 14 activities in The Forum? 15 A. Yes. My dad kept a diary from 1914, when he first came to 16 Chicago, until 1959. There was only one or two years that he 17 didn't keep the diary up. But all those years, he did. In 18 which he every day noted his expenditures, what movies he saw, 19 what time he went to work, who he worked with, who his friends 20 were, which of his -- who was his landlady, what he had for 21 dinner, and also he was introduced to The Forum by a friend 22 from Williamsburg, Kentucky who he happened to meet on the 23 street one day who had been a patient of Dr. Sadler and he 24 invited my father to come and join or sit in on this Sunday 25 afternoon meeting. That Dr. Sadler discussed general subjects 00697 {12:01:02pm} 01 of health and well-being and such subjects as genetics and 02 mendelian law and just general topics that would be of interest 03 to people. 04 Q. When you were younger, did you ever observe your father 05 writing in his diary? 06 A. Yes. I didn't know what he wrote but he wrote. 07 Q. Did you ever sneak a peek? 08 A. No, I didn't, no. 09 THE COURT: Counsel, would this be a good point to 10 take a luncheon recess? 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: This is fine. 12 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll 13 be recessed until 1:15. Be back in the jury assembly room at 14 that time and I'll send my bailiff for you. 15 I'll remind you of my previous admonition not to discuss 16 the case. 17 Everyone please stand and remain standing. 18 Court's in recess. 19 (THE LUNCHEON RECESS WAS TAKEN) 20 00698 { 1:15:52pm} 01 AFTERNOON SESSION 02 FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2001 03 --------------------------------------------------------------- 04 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF 05 THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 06 THE COURT: You may be seated. The jurors are on 07 their way. 08 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 09 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, did anything occur 11 during the recess that would prevent you from continuing to 12 serve as fair and impartial jurors? 13 I gather not. 14 You may continue, Mr. Schoenthaler. 15 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Ms. Kendall, let's talk about -- 16 let's finalize one subject we were talking about. 17 We discussed Mr. Sadler and you said he was an honest 18 person. Can you tell me something about Dr. Sadler and his 19 accomplishments? 20 A. Yes. It was always my impression that he was the greatest 21 man I ever knew. He was warmhearted, kindly. He was genuinely 22 interested in his patients. He wanted only the best for them. 23 He had a background that was -- well, it was -- he was an 24 upstanding person in that he was a man of many accomplishments, 25 and one of the most versatile human beings I ever knew in my 00699 { 1:28:14pm} 01 life. 02 As I worked with him, he would expound on many of the 03 experiences he had had and achievements of his past life, 04 earlier life. He began as a young man at the Battle Creek 05 Sanatorium in Michigan having worked with the Kellogg group and 06 family. He was a member of the Seventh Day Adventists and I 07 believe he was -- well, I know he was the leader of the youth 08 group organization in the Seventh Day Adventist organization. 09 He eventually moved away from that group. And he was an 10 ordained minister. 11 At one point, after the death of their young baby, 12 Dr. Lena Sadler, Dr. Sadler's wife, decided that she would like 13 to study medicine and she challenged her husband, William, to 14 also study medicine and become a physician, which they did. 15 And to pay their expenses through medical school, he got a job 16 as a detective with the Pinkerton Detective Agency and became 17 very successful as a detective. He was so good that Pinkerton 18 asked him to stay with them but, of course, by that time, by 19 the time he graduated from medical school, this is what he 20 intended to do. 21 His experience with the Ellen White phenomenon in the 22 Seventh Day Adventist religion led him to the study of psychic 23 phenomena and mediums. As we spoke before, unmasking 24 fraudulent mediums. He was such a dynamic public speaker that 25 he was hired by the Chautauqua circuit to travel the midwest 00700 { 1:30:48pm} 01 giving lectures on health and well-being, medical questions. 02 His idea was to get rid of the snake oil speakers in those 03 days. There were a lot of people selling patent medicines, 04 fraudulent cures, and his idea was to promote genuine health 05 and well-being through the most advanced tools of medical 06 science, and this he did to the average person in small towns. 07 Many of them did not have opportunities to encounter this kind 08 of medicine. So this was part of his mission to do this. 09 Let me see. 10 He was a physician but he was also a surgeon and he 11 claimed that he had performed one of the first surgeries of 12 knitting bones together with a foreign object. He said we got 13 the bone of an animal, polished it, trimmed it and sanded it 14 and inserted it in the hip and it was a successful operation. 15 At some point, he decided to study psychiatry and he 16 traveled to Vienna and studied directly under Sigmund Freud in 17 the same class as Alfred Adler and Carl Young. Dr. Sadler was 18 the first of his students to reject Freud's theory that sex was 19 the entire basis of human motivation. Dr. Sadler felt that 20 religion and spiritual aspirations were far more significant 21 than sex. 22 And Dr. Freud had little or nothing to do with Dr. Sadler 23 for the rest of his own life; however, I saw letters and 24 correspondence in the files between Anna Freud, Sigmund Freud's 25 daughter, and Dr. Sadler as well as between Young and 00701 { 1:33:16pm} 01 Dr. Sadler. 02 What else did he do? 03 He was -- oh, as I mentioned, he had used -- or he had 04 worked for Pinkerton's during his medical school days. He was 05 asked by the United States Government to go to England and 06 study Scotland Yard, their investigative methods, their 07 structure and setup with the idea that in America they would 08 establish an investigative organization: the FBI. And when -- 09 And he helped develop the plans. He was offered the 10 directorship, which he rejected, and he was equated with 11 J. Edgar Hoover and recommended him to be the director. 12 Q. Was he a member of any medical groups? 13 A. The American Psychiatric Association. And he had been a 14 member of the American College of Surgeons but at one point he 15 was told he could only be a specialist in one field and not -- 16 he could not have a double specialty, so he resigned from the 17 American College of Surgeons. He had been a founding member. 18 Q. And was he a member of the American -- what was it? 19 A. Psychiatric Association. 20 Q. Psychiatric Association? 21 Was he a member as long as he practiced? 22 A. Yes, yes. He was a member in good standing. 23 Q. Now, you joined -- in 1951 you joined The Forum? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Which was pretty late into its existence? 00702 { 1:35:11pm} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Did you know the other Forum members well? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Did you know Mary Lou Hales? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Did you know Ticky Harries, Katharine Harries? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. How about Helen Carlson? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Were you friends with these people? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. We talked a little bit about The Contact Commission and 13 we've talked at length about Dr. Sadler. Did you know 14 Christie, Emma Christensen? 15 A. Yes, very well. 16 Q. Tell the jury a little about Emma Christensen. 17 A. She was an -- when she first joined the Sadler family, she 18 was employed at the Federal Reserve in Chicago. She was office 19 manager. Eventually she rose to the position where she was in 20 charge of dispatching bank examiners, all of the bank examiners 21 who were based in the Chicago office, to banks in the 22 midwest. She had a very responsible job. 23 Q. Do you consider her to be an honest and truthful person? 24 A. Oh, yes, yes. She was a very dignified woman who was, I 25 think, quite inspirational. 00703 { 1:36:33pm} 01 Q. Now, The Brotherhood and The Foundation, we've talked 02 about. 03 A. Uh-huh. 04 Q. Well, stop -- let me stop there. The Forum, when the 05 Forum -- when there was a decision being discussed to publish 06 the book, to publish the papers into a book form, who drove 07 that decision? 08 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me. I didn't hear the last 09 couple of words. Can you move the microphone? 10 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes. 11 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) The decision to publish the Urantia 12 Papers into book form, who drove that decision? 13 A. The individual? 14 Q. Individual, whoever drove it. 15 A. The Contact Commission. 16 Q. Was The Forum aware that an organization was going to be 17 formed to publish the book? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You said you knew these people well in The Forum. Were 20 they consistently behind the decision? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you think of anybody at that time that was not in 23 agreement that The Urantia Foundation should be set up to 24 publish a book that included the Urantia Papers? 25 A. No, I don't know of anybody who wasn't in favor of that. 00704 { 1:37:52pm} 01 Q. Did persons contribute money, persons from The Forum, 02 contribute money? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. A large percentage, a small percentage? 05 A. According to their ability. 06 Q. Did you contribute money? 07 A. I didn't. We didn't have any money. But my father did. 08 Q. Let's follow up on something we discussed earlier. You 09 discussed having been interviewed by Dr. Sadler. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you had discussed being present for some of your 12 family members being interviewed. 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. And also while you were a receptionist, sometimes you said 15 he left the door open? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. Well, you've already told the jury about the substance of 18 that conversation. Are you familiar with a document called The 19 History of the Urantia Movement? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Tell me how you came in possession of that document. 22 A. In 1991, I was invited to be part of a small group to 23 prepare a history of the Urantia movement, including The 24 Brotherhood, The Foundation, and The Fellowship. This was a 25 motion by the special projects committee of the -- well, what 00705 { 1:39:20pm} 01 was The Brotherhood but had become The Fellowship. And, so, 02 this particular document was given to me one Friday evening at 03 a study group that I attended. It was sent out to me by The 04 Fellowship office as being potentially helpful in the 05 preparation of this -- of the history. I didn't actually open 06 the box for several weeks but when I did and I saw the history, 07 which I had never seen before, I realized that it was actually 08 the script that Dr. Sadler had used to interview potential 09 Forum members. 10 Q. Was it exactly what he said at all times? 11 A. Well, he varied his spiel from time to time. You know, 12 he'd include some things and omit others but basically this was 13 the entire script or generally the entire script. 14 Q. You didn't actually ever see him -- I mean, he didn't work 15 from -- 16 A. He never used paper. He had a photographic memory. He 17 could see -- he could see a page in front of his -- in his 18 mind's eye. 19 Q. Let's go back and talk about your father again because I 20 think that's where we left off before the lunch break. 21 When did your father join The Forum, to your knowledge? 22 A. I believe it was in -- well, it was in 1923. 23 Q. And how long -- Did he attend meetings regularly? 24 A. As best he could. As I say, he was a railway mail clerk. 25 When he was in the city on a Sunday, he would attend. 00706 { 1:41:22pm} 01 Q. And was there a time where his ability to attend was 02 interrupted to some extent? 03 A. Yes. 1931, after his marriage and he moved to Ohio, while 04 he would still travel to Chicago, it wasn't always convenient, 05 and it was during the depression, for him to find a hotel in 06 Chicago so that he could stay over and attend The Forum 07 meetings. In fact, there were a couple of years there where 08 meetings were somewhat curtailed, I understand. 09 Q. Why was that? 10 A. The depression. People just didn't have enough money to 11 travel to get to the meetings. 12 Q. And did he -- you mentioned you all eventually moved back 13 to Chicago. 14 A. Yes, in 1943. 15 Q. Now, we discussed a little bit about that your father kept 16 some sort of record. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Describe, if you would, for the jury, what you call his 19 diaries. 20 A. Yes. Well, he had small diaries that he kept, one for 21 each year, and in it he noted the meetings he attended, the 22 titles of the papers that were read on the Sunday -- at the 23 Sunday meetings. 24 Q. Now, this wasn't just items relating to The Forum that 25 were in this diary? 00707 { 1:42:53pm} 01 A. Oh, no. It was his whole life. Very brief notations. 02 Q. Did you -- You mentioned, I think, that you recall him 03 writing in his diaries from time to time? 04 A. Yes, I saw him many times writing in his diaries. 05 Q. Tell me how you -- What happened to his diaries after his 06 death? 07 A. My mother got them, and then after my mother died I have 08 them. They're actually owned by my brother and myself. 09 Q. Now, when your mother found -- your mother took the 10 diaries? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Did she do anything? 13 A. Yeah, she went through them and made a list of all the 14 papers that he had read or encountered in The Forum and she had 15 handwritten lists of them, of the papers. 16 Q. And when they passed on to you, -- 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. -- did you do anything with them? 19 A. Yes, I made the same list but I didn't realize my mother 20 had already made the list. And in her stuff I found that she 21 had made a list, and hers was very similar to mine. 22 Q. How many different titles of the papers? 23 A. Oh, I think I counted, between 1924 and 1937, I think 24 there were about 91 different -- well, 91 titles. Some of them 25 were duplicates. 00708 { 1:44:42pm} 01 Q. Now, these diaries that you have, they've been in the 02 possession of your family? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Ever since your father's death? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Do you recognize your father's handwriting? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Do you have those diaries with you here today? 09 A. I have some of them. 10 Q. Which ones do you have? 11 A. Do you want me to list them? 12 Q. I mean, do you know the years they're from? 13 A. Let's see. 1924, 1925, 1929, '30, '34, '35 and '37. 14 Q. Would you open one of the diaries up, please? 15 A. Any particular -- 16 Q. Take your pick. 17 Do you recognize that to be your father's handwriting? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, at this time I move 20 for the introduction of exhibit 71. 21 THE COURT: Do you have any objection? 22 MR. ABOWITZ: May I take a minute to see what they 23 are, Your Honor? I've seen copies of them. I've not seen the 24 originals. 25 THE COURT: Sure. 00709 { 1:46:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: May I? 02 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What number? 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: 71. 04 Your Honor, it's my understanding that what we're going to 05 do, if it's okay with your court and Mr. Abowitz, is for her to 06 discuss the diaries without too much specificity and we have -- 07 our exhibit 71 is actually -- 08 THE COURT: Copies? 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: -- copies of portions. 10 Counsel was given an opportunity to inspect. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: The originals? 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Ross. 13 MR. PLOURDE: Actually that occurred prior to the 14 time you designated. What part -- 15 MR. SCHOENTHALER: We're not going to discuss 16 anything with specificity because I know we're not putting the 17 actual -- they're not our property; they're Ms. Kendall's. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd object to it on the basis that it 19 is hearsay, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Now, let me understand the basis of your 21 objection. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: It is hearsay. 23 THE COURT: And what is your -- 24 MR. SCHOENTHALER: It's an ancient document -- It's 25 an ancient document, Your Honor. It's over 20 years old. It's 00710 { 1:47:21pm} 01 authentic. She has testified to the authenticity. 02 THE COURT: What's the relevance? 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: The relevance is it discusses the 04 papers that came and the questions. 05 THE COURT: Overrule the objection. They will be 06 admitted. 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I publish one of them to the 08 jury, Your Honor? 09 THE COURT: Sure. 10 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Do you have any objection? 11 MR. ABOWITZ: No, I have no objection. 12 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Now, do you know whether or not 13 The Contact Commission or Forum were aware of these diaries? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would you explain to the jury in what manner. 16 A. Yes. Shortly before publication, my father approached 17 Mrs. Kellogg, one of the Contact Commissioners, and told her 18 that he had kept a diary all of those years and that in the 19 diaries he had noted the titles of the papers that had been 20 read to The Forum and he offered to make a list for her for the 21 Contact Commissioners if they would be interested. She said, 22 "Well, I'll talk to Bill," meaning Bill Sadler, who was one of 23 the other Contact -- 24 Q. Is this Bill Sadler, Jr.? 25 A. Yes, William Sadler, Jr. -- "and see what he says." 00711 { 1:49:14pm} 01 A few weeks later, she came back to my father and said, "Bill 02 asked me to ask you to destroy all the diaries," and he really 03 didn't want to do that because this was his whole life. So 04 what he did was to go through and wherever he found a citation 05 of the papers that had been read, he went over it with ink 06 eradicator to try to obliterate the notation on the title of 07 the paper. 08 Q. Was he successful? 09 A. Well, he probably was for a while but by the time I got 10 the diaries, all the -- or most of the writing was definitely 11 apparent. 12 Q. And you can -- 13 A. Yes, I can -- 14 Q. You can read his handwriting? 15 A. I can read it. 16 Q. Let's talk a little bit in general terms, and I don't want 17 you to name specific titles or anything, but talk about in 18 general terms the items in the diary that are relevant to this 19 case. Are there any entries that discuss the questioning 20 process? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Generally, describe or summarize what those entries would 23 say. 24 A. Well, one in particular is the first questioning process, 25 which he notes December 14th, 1924. -- 00712 { 1:50:56pm} 01 Q. Let's not get into precise dates. 02 A. Oh, okay. 03 Q. I know you're aware of all this but let's just talk 04 general. 05 A. Right. Well, The Forum was invited to submit questions, 06 anything that had ever -- that they had ever wondered about, 07 the nature of God or any spiritual and religious question that 08 might occur to them that perhaps they could ask, so all of 09 the -- or as far as I know, all of The Forum members wrote up 10 questions and submitted them. The Contact Commissioners took 11 the questions, they sorted them on the floor, they threw away 12 duplicates, and some which were trivial, and submitted the rest 13 of the questions to the revelators. 14 Q. Now, are there entries in the diaries that actually list 15 how many questions were asked on a particular day? 16 A. Yes. My father mentions that he went to 533 Diversey, The 17 Forum, and they received the answers to the questions that had 18 been asked. And in the diary, it says -- well, it's a little 19 confusing. It's hard to determine whether it says 181 20 questions or 1,810. I think it's 181. 21 Q. Do you have trouble with most of the entries in the diary? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you? 24 A. They're difficult to read. 25 Q. Have you read them? 00713 { 1:52:46pm} 01 A. I have read them. I feel I can read them, but they're 02 difficult to read. 03 Oh, there's another case where he indicates that he went 04 to 533 and read paper 25 and wrote questions on it. 05 Q. Does he actually name the titles in his diary that he 06 would read? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Now, let's separate out. The Forum meetings were on what 09 day? 10 A. On Sunday. 11 Q. And on Sunday, The Forum came and they submitted 12 questions? The paper was read to them -- 13 A. Later on, later on, yes. The first batch -- The first 14 batch of papers consisted of 57 papers and later on they were 15 invited to ask questions. 16 Q. Now, on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and through the rest 17 of the week, people could come -- 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. -- and read? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So there are entries on your father's diary on Sunday 22 where he's talking about a Forum meeting and there are entries 23 on the other days where he just goes and reads? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Are there entries on Sundays which specifically state the 00714 { 1:54:07pm} 01 name of the title that was read to The Forum and which 02 questions were asked on? 03 A. No, just the title of the paper. 04 Q. Just the title of the paper? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Are these titles capitalized? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Are these titles, as they appear in your father's diaries, 09 the same as are now in The Urantia Book? 10 A. No. 11 Q. How many of the titles -- I think you mentioned a number. 12 How many titles of papers are in those diaries? 13 A. Well, there were a few duplicates but there were a total 14 between 1924 and 1937 of 91 titles. 15 Q. Individual titles, not duplicate? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. How many of those 91 titles are the same title as is now 18 in The Urantia Book? 19 A. I don't have a percentage but they were not all the same 20 by any means. 21 Q. So a significant number of them were different? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Object as leading, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 25 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) And can you give an example of one 00715 { 1:55:37pm} 01 that was different than what is now in The Urantia Book? 02 A. Well, there's one -- Melchizedek from -- oh, let's see. 03 It's something From Melchizedek to Christ Michael. There's no 04 title in The Urantia Book with that title. 05 Q. And are there some titles -- some of the titles that you 06 say are the same that are now in The Urantia Book, are some of 07 them similar but not the same? 08 A. Yes, yes. You would know that it's a similar subject. 09 Q. So you could tie it into the paper that's now in The 10 Urantia Book? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And there are some, I think you just said, that don't 13 exist at all? 14 A. As titles of papers. 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. There's one case where there was a title listed in his 17 diary of the paper read which now happens to be the first 18 section of a particular paper. 19 Q. And are the titles -- Now, if you look at these diaries, 20 okay, from day one that questions began to be asked to the end, 21 those titles show up, I take it, every Sunday or, you know -- I 22 mean, they show up periodically. He didn't go every day, I 23 guess is what I'm saying. 24 A. Right. He couldn't attend every week. 25 Q. If you list those papers, those 91 papers in order, okay, 00716 { 1:57:08pm} 01 in a list from top to bottom, and you compared them with a list 02 of the 1 to 196 papers in The Urantia Book, are there papers 03 that have the same title in your father's diaries, have the 04 same title as in The Urantia Book, are those papers in 05 completely correct order? Do they mirror The Urantia Book's 06 listing of papers? 07 A. No, not necessarily. Well, if you take all the titles, 08 not from beginning to end, but there would be times when they 09 would repeat. 10 Q. Uh-huh. I'm just talking about the individual titles. 11 Let's say this: Now, we're only talking about papers or titles 12 that are the same as the titles in The Urantia Book now. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Okay? Would a title, let's say, that appeared in August 15 of 1934, and another title that appeared in December of 1934, 16 might those be reversed in order in The Urantia Book? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm going to object to the form. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 A. I'm afraid I -- 20 THE COURT: I sustained the objection to the 21 question. 22 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Let me try to rephrase this. 23 Are there papers -- In the list of papers that we just 24 talked about -- 25 A. Yes. 00717 { 1:58:49pm} 01 Q. -- in your father's diary, are there papers that are out 02 of order as compared to how they appear in The Urantia Book? 03 A. Yes, yes. 04 Q. Okay. How long have you been on The Fellowship? 05 A. Been a member of The Fellowship? I've been a member of 06 The Brotherhood and Fellowship since 1956. 07 Q. And were you around or a member of The Fellowship at the 08 time that we've heard to become described as the split? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. What was the split, briefly? 11 A. That was when Urantia Foundation delicensed Urantia 12 Brotherhood and denied The Brotherhood the right to use the 13 word "Urantia" in the title of its organization. 14 Q. And what is your position on whether now The Fellowship, 15 formerly The Brotherhood and The Foundation, should they be 16 completely separate, should they be combined, should they work 17 together? Tell the jury. 18 A. The Fellowship and The Foundation? 19 Q. Yes, ma'am. 20 A. Well, as they always were, I believe they're two 21 different -- two separate functions and they should not be 22 affiliated in any way. 23 Q. Do you think they should at least have a common 24 understanding? 25 A. Yes. 00718 { 2:00:22pm} 01 Q. Do you think they should work together? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Were you a member or involved in something called The 04 Millennium Initiative? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. What was it called? 07 A. The Millennium Initiative. 08 Q. Oh. 09 A. There were three of us that started it about three years 10 ago. 11 Q. Who started it? 12 A. A man named David Elders -- well, four of us actually -- 13 David Elders, Lyn Lear, Nancy Shaffer and myself. 14 Q. What was the purpose of The Millennium Initiative? 15 A. To see if there was any possible way that the two 16 organizations, the IUA, International Urantia Association, and 17 The Fellowship could find common ground to perhaps form an 18 organization into which The Fellowship and the IUA could merge 19 functions. 20 Q. And has that been successful? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are you still working at it? 23 A. Not at the moment. 24 Q. Was that an idea that you tried to involve The Fellowship 25 in? 00719 { 2:01:44pm} 01 A. Oh, yes. In fact, The Fellowship leadership in the second 02 phase of it became members of the initiative. 03 Q. Are you a member of The Fellowship? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Do you hold any positions? 06 A. Yes, two. I'm a member of the publications committee of 07 The Fellowship and I'm president of one of The Fellowship 08 societies. 09 Q. During this time, during -- regarding The Millennium 10 Initiative, did you ever have opportunity to discuss The 11 Millennium Initiative with Harry McMullan? 12 A. No, I didn't. 13 Q. I just want to go back to one thing, before I step down, 14 and clarify with you. 15 When I was asking you about the two lists and we were 16 talking about the lists of the 91 papers -- 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. -- from your father's diaries, when we were comparing that 19 list to Urantia -- The Urantia Book and their list of papers, 20 we were only talking about Sunday, papers that he wrote in his 21 diary were on Sunday; correct? 22 A. Well, not -- no. I think that list I was referring to 23 included all of the papers that were -- that appeared in his 24 diary. 25 Q. Okay. Well, let's narrow that list then and let's just 00720 { 2:03:16pm} 01 take the ones that occurred on Sunday. 02 A. I'd have to make a separate list. I can't -- 03 Q. If I showed you -- you've given a declaration in this 04 case, did you not? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. If I showed you that declaration, do you think it would 07 refresh your recollection? 08 A. But that wouldn't list all the Sunday meetings. 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, may I use the diaries 10 to refresh her recollection as to this one point? 11 THE COURT: May you what? 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Use the diaries to refresh her 13 recollection. 14 THE COURT: They're admitted in the record. You can 15 but I don't know how long this will take. 16 Counselor? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: I think the witness said that her 18 memory couldn't be refreshed. -- 19 MR. SCHOENTHALER: By the declaration, she said. I 20 think the diaries would refresh her recollection. 21 THE COURT: Let's move on. 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: That's all I have. 23 THE COURT: I think she has answered. 24 Do you have anything further? 25 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No, sir. 00721 { 2:04:15pm} 01 THE COURT: Do you have any cross-examination? 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes, sir, I do. 03 CROSS-EXAMINATION 04 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 05 Q. You were employed as Dr. Sadler's receptionist -- 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. -- for a period of time? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And may I ask you again to repeat the years. 10 A. It would be from about April 1952 until sometime in 1954, 11 and then again part-time in 1957. 12 Q. And that period of time was well after all the events 13 you've related to us this afternoon? 14 A. Well, 1957 would be after the publication of the book. 15 Q. But all the indications you've made of the Sunday meetings 16 and the reading of the papers, that all went on well before you 17 became associated with Dr. Sadler? 18 A. It was during the time I worked for him too. 19 Q. In 1950? 20 A. Well, 1951 to 1955. 21 Q. The papers had already been completed and -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- certified as Dr. Sadler said at that time; is that 24 correct? 25 A. That's right. 00722 { 2:05:50pm} 01 Q. And the reading of the papers at that point was purely 02 academic, was it not? 03 A. Correct. 04 Q. All right. So, you are not telling the jury there were 05 revisions of these papers that was going on in the '50s when -- 06 A. No, I was not telling them that. 07 Q. Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. 08 Now, your understanding is that the person that we have 09 referred to in the first several days of this trial as the 10 patient/contact personality actually had a doctor/patient 11 relationship with Dr. Sadler; is that correct? 12 A. According to what Dr. Sadler told me, this was the initial 13 relationship. 14 Q. Okay. And I believe you've previously indicated that that 15 person died in the mid '50s? 16 A. I have no knowledge of when he died. 17 Q. Did you testify to the effect that he did die in the mid 18 '50s? 19 A. Yes, but that was -- that was what was generally believed. 20 Q. All right. And the other events that you have related to 21 us here today, are those what people generally believe; is that 22 correct? 23 A. No, I have personal knowledge of some of these things. 24 Q. Some of them. The other ones you don't, and the ones you 25 don't are what people generally believe; is that correct? 00723 { 2:07:20pm} 01 A. I'm not sure what you just said. 02 Q. All right. 03 A. I'm sorry. 04 Q. Let me start over again. 05 You indicated you have personal knowledge of some things? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Correct? 08 You certainly have personal knowledge, by virtue of the 09 possession of the diaries, what your father wrote. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. But there are other matters about which you do not have 12 personal knowledge; is that correct? 13 A. Except that Dr. Sadler told me these things or told them 14 in my hearing several times. 15 Q. All right. And outside of that, there are things about 16 which Dr. Sadler didn't tell you and are matters of general 17 understanding, as you've said; is that correct? 18 A. Well, there are things that Ms. Christensen told me. 19 Q. And all of those are matters that are generally understood 20 to be so? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. By the people that are involved in the Urantia movement; 23 is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And one of the things that's so is that this contact 00724 { 2:08:24pm} 01 personality patient died in the mid '50s? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. But no one was allowed to tell about the demise of the 04 patient; is that correct? 05 A. Correct. 06 Q. That was a secret? 07 A. Correct. 08 Q. Now, you were a compiler of a work called the 100 Years of 09 Revelation of Historic Perspective? 10 A. Yes, I was one of the participants in that effort. 11 Q. What is that? 12 A. It was a history of the Urantia movement from the earliest 13 beginnings until the present time, and it was commissioned by 14 Urantia Foundation. 15 Q. And that essentially was what, a series of -- a series of 16 general understandings of what went on? 17 A. Well, this was information that we believed to be true and 18 for which we had background material, papers, records, minutes, 19 notes, interviews, as the basis for our history. 20 Q. And let me get back to a question asked by counsel 21 about -- I believe the question was, "Who drove the decision to 22 publish the book?" Do you recall that question? 23 A. Well, this would be the Revelatory Commission. 24 Q. Okay. It wasn't The Contact Commission? 25 A. The Contact Commission took their orders from the 00725 { 2:10:17pm} 01 Revelatory Commission. 02 Q. Tell us who the Revelatory Commission is. 03 A. These would be a group of superhuman beings who had 04 provided the revelation and who oversaw the disposition of the 05 revelation. 06 Q. And is it a general understanding that those people 07 directed the whole process? 08 A. Those people meaning the -- 09 Q. Well, I don't know how to refer to them. I'm sorry. I 10 don't want to say anything that would offend you. 11 A. They're not really people but they're -- 12 Q. How should I refer to them? 13 A. They would be our unseen friends. 14 Q. Okay. May I refer to them as that? It wouldn't be -- 15 A. Of course. 16 Q. It wouldn't be blasphemy for me to say that or anything? 17 I don't want to offend anybody, Okay? 18 A. No. 19 Q. These unseen friends actually, in the general 20 understanding of the Urantian movement, is that they dictated, 21 number one, when the book was going to be published? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Number two, that it would be published? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, this question process, those questions were directed 00726 { 2:11:36pm} 01 to whom is your understanding? 02 A. The questions that were invited by the revelators? 03 Q. I didn't understand that. These same unseen friends asked 04 for questions? 05 A. That's right. 06 Q. And the questions -- 07 A. They were asked through the Contact Commissioners. 08 Q. Those questions were asked and these unseen friends 09 answered the questions? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And they answered the questions as they chose to answer 12 them? 13 A. Presumably. 14 Q. They didn't answer questions they didn't want to answer? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. They chose the language that was -- they are the ones that 17 chose the language in the response to the questions? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And they are the ones that determined if they were going 20 to answer the question? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, as I understand it, nobody can say that this question 23 and this answer is part of this paper in The Urantia Book; is 24 that correct? 25 A. Yes. 00727 { 2:12:45pm} 01 Q. That is correct? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. The general understanding is that the papers as they 04 finally appeared in The Urantia Book were originally in the 05 hand of the patient; is that correct? 06 A. I don't know that. 07 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 08 A. I don't know that. Dr. Sadler said that they appeared in 09 his desk drawer but they were not -- seemed to be written by 10 the contact personality ever. 11 Q. Are you aware of Mr. Keeler's view that the patient 12 identified his handwriting? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you're aware that Dr. Sadler agreed that the 15 handwriting was that of the patient? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So the papers that were received that were in handwriting 18 were in the handwriting of the patient; is that correct? 19 A. As I understand it, yes. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 A. But they never saw him write it. 22 Q. And the papers, as they were in the handwriting of the 23 patient and as subsequently transcribed into type, are the ones 24 precisely in that form and in that language and in that order 25 that appear today in The Urantia Book; is that correct? 00728 { 2:14:45pm} 01 A. I'm not certain about that. I don't think so. 02 Q. Can you point us to any proof that would indicate to the 03 contrary? 04 A. There are instances where the titles as they appear in the 05 diaries are different than those titles that are in The Urantia 06 Book, and in some cases they are in different order. 07 Q. But if the -- if the general understanding is that 08 everything in that book was originally in the hand of the 09 patient and was transcribed without change, do you have 10 evidence to dispute that? 11 A. They were in the hand -- hands of the Contact 12 Commissioners. 13 Q. By hand, I meant in the handwriting of -- 14 A. In the handwriting of. 15 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to confuse you. 16 A. There may have been other techniques used. 17 Q. Is that what Dr. Sadler says? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did he say that they were handwritten? 20 A. Those that were received in handwriting were done that way 21 but there was indication that they were received by other means 22 as well. 23 Q. What did -- Are you aware of The History of the Urantia 24 Movement? 25 A. Which one? 00729 { 2:16:20pm} 01 Q. The one that is supposedly authored by Dr. Sadler? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And in that, he says there is no automatic handwriting, no 04 psychic phenomena? 05 A. That's right. 06 Q. No dual personality? 07 A. That's right. 08 Q. None of the things that he was looking at when he was a 09 detective to uncover these frauds; is that correct? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. And he said they were handwritten; is that correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And he said, and you repeated in this history, the 100 14 year history, that the original papers were handwritten; 15 correct? 16 A. Many of them, most of them were. 17 Q. This says "The." You didn't say some of them in the 18 paper, did you? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Did you? 21 A. They were in handwriting, yes. 22 Q. Now, do you disagree with Mr. Keeler's view that all the 23 papers were in the handwriting of the patient and those papers, 24 as they were transcribed, appear today in The Urantia Book? 25 A. All the papers that were handwritten were in the 00730 { 2:17:32pm} 01 handwriting of the contact personality but all of the papers 02 that appear -- that appeared originally are not necessarily the 03 same papers that are in The Urantia Book. 04 Q. So you disagree with Mr. Keeler? 05 A. No, I don't think that disagrees. 06 Q. All right. Mr. Keeler is of the view, and he has stated 07 that under oath here, that everything in that book was at one 08 time in the handwriting of the patient and went from that 09 handwriting to that book through a typewritten process to 10 printing plates without change except for spelling and 11 punctuation. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Do you agree with that? 14 A. Okay. I think, as you said it at the last is correct. 15 Q. Do you agree with that? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. It's the handwriting of the patient that -- again, those 19 papers appeared in Dr. Sadler's office. The patient -- 20 Q. I'm not quarrelling about that. I'm trying to get a sense 21 now of what you're saying. Let me try it one more time. 22 The papers that appear and I'm going to use the word 23 "handwriting" again instead of "hand," in the handwriting of 24 the patient, found their way into that book without change 25 except for typographical errors, spelling, punctuation; 00731 { 2:19:13pm} 01 correct? 02 A. Okay. 03 Q. Correct? 04 A. Okay. 05 Q. All right. I'll accept the "Okay." 06 And they appear in The Urantia Book in the same order as 07 they were delivered to The Contact Commission? 08 A. No, there were differences. 09 Q. There were differences? 10 A. It's not the identical order. 11 Q. Now, do you -- let's pick a paper. Paper 160, the paper 12 160 had handwriting "160" on it at the time it was transcribed 13 into typewritten form; correct? 14 A. I don't know that. 15 Q. You don't know to the contrary; is that correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. So the testimony is that the papers in The Urantia Book 18 are the same papers -- they are in the same form as they were 19 in the handwriting of the patient with a few exceptions we've 20 talked about, including the number of the paper. 21 Now, that being so, the papers wound up in The Urantia 22 Book in the same -- in the same order as they were numbered 23 when they were received in the handwriting of the patient; 24 correct? 25 A. In the final version? In the final version. 00732 { 2:20:54pm} 01 Q. Now, as I understand what you have said to us, first of 02 all, members of The Contact Commission, Dr. Sadler and the 03 folks related to him, had no control whatsoever over the way 04 the questions were answered; is that correct? 05 A. They had no control? 06 Q. Right, over the way the questions were answered. 07 A. In other words, they submitted the questions and the 08 questions were answered by the revelators. No control, no. 09 Q. They had no control; is that correct? 10 A. That's correct yes. 11 Q. And the same would be true with the members of The Forum; 12 is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The members of The Forum had no control over how the 15 questions were answered? 16 A. Yes, correct. 17 Q. And as we have indicated, those questions, whatever they 18 were and whatever the answers were, nobody can look at the 19 Urantia Book today and tell us specifically the question that 20 was posed or the answer given? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Is that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: I think that's all I have, Your Honor. 25 00733 { 2:22:45pm} 01 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 03 Q. I have a couple or three points here. 04 Counsel made a statement, and I'm paraphrasing so use your 05 memory, but he said something to the extent that what was put 06 in The Urantia Book -- let's put it this way: The Urantia 07 Papers were put in The Urantia Book exactly as they were 08 received. 09 A. Yes, that statement is in Dr. Sadler's history. 10 Q. Now, are we talking about the early papers that questions 11 were asked on or are we talking about the final papers before 12 they went to press? 13 A. These would be the final papers. 14 Q. It would be difficult to put a partial paper in that 15 Dr. Sadler read to The Forum one day simply because it's 16 partial? 17 A. Correct, yeah. 18 Q. Let's talk about your father's diary very quickly. I 19 think counsel asked you for a specific example. Do you recall 20 an entry in your father's diary relating to the bestowals of 21 Christ Michael? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall right now what paper that is in The Urantia 24 Book? Would you pick up The Urantia Book right there, the blue 25 book. 00734 { 2:24:06pm} 01 A. Yeah, I think that's 120 or 119. It would be the last 02 paper in part III. 03 Q. Take a look. 04 A. Yeah, 119. That's the last paper in part III. 05 Q. What are the pages? 06 A. That begins on page 1309. 07 Q. And where's it end? 08 A. Well, the first paper of part IV begins on 1323, so 09 there's -- 10 Q. Do you recall if your father's diary, when he discusses 11 the bestowals of Christ Michael on April 28th, 1929, that he 12 went to The Forum and heard that on a Sunday, do you recall 13 whether those page numbers are the same page numbers that are 14 in the diary? 15 A. They were different. 16 Q. Let's go to another example. Now, that's paper 119; 17 right? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. And your father's diary has an entry April 28th, 1999. On 20 May 12th -- 21 A. Wait. 1999? Say that again. 22 Q. Sorry. April 28th, 1929. 23 A. 1929. Okay. 24 Q. On May 12th, 1929, do you recall an entry in your father's 25 diary, "Thought adjusters in life and in death"? 00735 { 2:25:23pm} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Do you know what paper that is in The Urantia Book? 03 A. There is no paper with that title. 04 Q. Right. What does it correspond do most closely? 05 A. Well, there are five thought adjuster papers. 06 Q. Where are they? 07 A. They are beginning on page -- paper 107, page 1176. 08 Q. Just give me the papers. 09 A. Okay. Paper 108, 109, 110 and 111. 10 Q. But those came a week -- two weeks, in your father's 11 diary, two weeks after the bestowals of Christ Michael, and the 12 bestowals of Christ Michael is, what, nine -- 13 A. The last papers -- 14 Q. -- papers after those? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Let's take another example. Is there an entry in your 17 father's diary for May 19, 1929 regarding the seraphic guardian 18 angels? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And is there such a paper in The Urantia Book? 21 A. Not with that title. 22 Q. What is the closest titles? 23 A. Seraphic Guardians of Destiny. 24 Q. Okay. What paper is that? 25 A. That's 113. 00736 { 2:26:33pm} 01 Q. And that came -- let me count -- three weeks after the 02 bestowals of Christ Michael? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And that's paper 113 and the bestowals of Christ Michael 05 is 119? 06 A. Uh-huh. Yes. 07 Q. Well, if these papers were arranged and compiled exactly 08 in the order that they were received by The Contact Commission 09 from the revelators, why are these titles mixed up? Why is one 10 before the other? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. I guess my final question: Do you recall any entries in 13 your father's diary regarding the number of pages? For 14 example, is there an entry in your father's diary November 27, 15 1937 that says, "Read papers 120 to 126 to page 3016"? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How many pages are in The Urantia Book? 18 A. 2,097, I think. 19 Q. Did you get your diary back from the jury? 20 A. He still has it. 21 Q. Okay. We'll get it to you. 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No more questions, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Do you have anything further? 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Briefly. 25 00737 { 2:27:53pm} 01 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 03 Q. Assuming you had the same margins, if you took the text, 04 10 of these pages of this size and 10 of the pages of this 05 size, you would have the same text in fewer pages on this; 06 right? If I had 500 words, same margins, would it take fewer 07 pages to put it in this or in this? 08 A. Are they -- 09 Q. They're different sizes. 10 A. Different sizes? Are you saying the margins would be 11 different or -- 12 Q. The margins are the same. 13 A. The margins are the same. 14 Q. Top and bottom, left and right. 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Would there be a difference? 17 A. There would probably be a difference. 18 Q. All right. Does the diary say what size the pages were 19 that account for the 3,000 pages? 20 A. We knew they were typewritten, uh-huh. 21 Q. Who chose the order in which to present the papers to The 22 Forum? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Whoever that was could choose to present number 10 before 25 number 8 and number 50 before number 192; is that correct? 00738 { 2:29:41pm} 01 A. They could. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 03 THE COURT: You may step down. 04 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 05 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 06 MR. HILL: We'll call Les Tibbals. 07 THE COURT: Come up, young man, and raise your right 08 hand and be sworn. 09 (WITNESS SWORN) 10 LESLIE TIBBALS, 11 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 12 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 13 THE COURT: Be seated, please, and state your full 14 name and spell your last name. 15 THE WITNESS: Leslie Tibbals, T-I-B-B-A-L-S. 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. HILL: 18 Q. Where do you reside, sir? 19 A. Nampa, Idaho. 20 Q. Would you tell the jury a little bit about yourself. 21 A. Well, in September of '94 my daughter was murdered and 22 following the bombing across the street I decided to relocate 23 in Idaho. I've worked for the City of Nampa now for two years 24 outside of Boise as building inspector, chief mechanical 25 inspector. I've had the honor, since I've been there, to help 00739 { 2:31:51pm} 01 put together an organization, statewide and tax exempt, support 02 and resource network for victims of homicide and survivors. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may I ask to have the 04 microphone moved up? 05 THE COURT: Yes. Pull the microphone just a little 06 closer, if you will. 07 THE WITNESS: Okay. 08 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And are you appearing today under a 09 subpoena? 10 A. I am. 11 Q. Do you know the plaintiff in this case, Harry McMullan, 12 III? 13 A. I do. 14 Q. Do you consider Mr. McMullan to be a friend of yours? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. How long have you known Mr. McMullan for? 17 A. Several years. 18 Q. Going back to what decade? 19 A. I'd say the '70s. 20 Q. How old are you? 21 A. 47. 22 Q. And at any point from the '70s until today, have you had 23 an opportunity to observe Mr. McMullan's behavior regarding 24 Urantia Foundation? 25 A. I have. 00740 { 2:33:01pm} 01 Q. Directing your attention to 1994, did you participate in a 02 business meeting of the Oklahoma society? 03 A. I did. 04 Q. Now, the jury is not familiar with what the Oklahoma 05 society is. Would you explain what that is. 06 A. Well, it's a -- I think it's a branch of The Fellowship 07 and a local fraternal organization about The Urantia Book, to 08 study and assimilate. 09 Q. Is Mr. McMullan -- Was Mr. McMullan a member of the 10 Oklahoma society in 1994? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. At this 1994 meeting, what if anything did Mr. McMullan 13 tell you about Urantia Foundation? 14 A. Well, actually he told the group. It was a business 15 meeting, so he addressed the group, that he was putting Urantia 16 Books in crates, a business that he owned, and shipping them to 17 South America to avoid tariffs on the books. 18 Q. Did he indicate why he was doing that? 19 A. So the books could be sold cheaper through The Fellowship 20 than what The Urantia Foundation could sell them. 21 Q. Did you work with Mr. McMullan on the Church of Christ 22 Michael project that we've heard some testimony about? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. And do you recall about when that was? 25 A. Seems like it was '96 -- well, '96 or '97. 00741 { 2:34:54pm} 01 Q. How did you come to participate in that process? 02 A. I had come down to Oklahoma to reestablish my business. I 03 had a roofing business before I went to Idaho, and I kept all 04 my accounts open, my customer base, so I came down to work. I 05 had heard that there was a project going on downtown and my son 06 and I got in the car and went to go investigate it and I ended 07 up volunteering, and my son volunteered, and I worked there for 08 three weeks as a volunteer. 09 Q. And did you work with Mr. McMullan during that time? 10 A. I did. 11 Q. Are you currently a member of the Oklahoma Society of The 12 Fellowship? 13 A. No. 14 Q. At any point in time, do you recall The Fellowship 15 Oklahoma Society sponsoring Tonia Baney or any other Foundation 16 representative to participate in the meeting here in Oklahoma 17 City? 18 A. Yes, I do. They had a business meeting to sponsor Tonia 19 Baney and George Dupont to come down and answer any question 20 that the local Oklahoma society may have and to have a social 21 gathering, dinner, get-together. 22 Q. Did you participate in the decision-making process that 23 led up to the Oklahoma society sponsoring Ms. Baney and 24 Mr. Dupont? 25 A. No, I was not a member of the Oklahoma society so I could 00742 { 2:36:42pm} 01 not have a vote. 02 Q. Do you know whether Mr. McMullan was aware of the fact 03 that Ms. Baney and Mr. Dupont were coming to Oklahoma City for 04 a meeting? 05 A. Yes, he was, and appeared to be real happy about it. 06 Q. You spoke to him about it? 07 A. I did. 08 Q. What did he tell you initially? 09 A. Well, initially he was glad and he offered his home for 10 them to stay at and then said that he would attend. 11 Q. And did he attend that meeting? 12 A. No, he did not. 13 Q. And did you ever have any conversations with him about why 14 he did not attend the meeting? 15 A. Well, I did ask him afterwards why he didn't show up and 16 he said he was angry at The Foundation. 17 Q. Did he say why? 18 A. No. No, he didn't. 19 Q. Did there come a time in the 1990s when you became aware 20 of copyright litigation that was going on between Kristen 21 Maaherra and Urantia Foundation? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And do you recall approximately when you learned of that? 24 A. Seems like it was '92 or '93, somewhere in there. 25 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with Mr. McMullan about 00743 { 2:38:07pm} 01 the Maaherra lawsuit? 02 A. Not directly, no. 03 Q. Do you recall a time when you learned of the results of 04 the appeal to the United States Court of Appeals in that case? 05 A. I do. I was working at the church at the time and he came 06 in in the morning and told Warren Litchfield, who is -- he and 07 I were working together, that the court of appeals had ruled in 08 The Urantia Foundation's behalf. 09 Q. And at some point after that, did you have a conversation 10 with him, either in person or on the phone, wherein he 11 indicated what he had lost? 12 A. He made mention that The Urantia Foundation had cost him 13 $30,000. 14 Q. In the course of the relationship between Urantia 15 Foundation and The Fellowship, have you had any discussions 16 with Mr. McMullan about the relationship between those two 17 organizations? 18 A. Say that again, please. 19 Q. Have you had any discussions with Mr. McMullan about the 20 relationship between Urantia Foundation and The Fellowship? 21 A. Well, we went to lunch one day and I started talking to 22 him about some of the goodwill gestures that The Fellowship was 23 making toward The Foundation and some of the gestures The 24 Urantia Foundation was making toward The Fellowship and 25 basically what was said was, "That's all well and good," and he 00744 { 2:40:03pm} 01 wanted to make it very clear to me that he would do everything 02 he could to make sure that the copyright got put in the public 03 domain. 04 Q. And do you recall approximately when this discussion was? 05 A. Well, it had to be before October, before Tonia and George 06 came down. 07 Q. Do you recall approximately what year? 08 A. Well, it was the same year the decision was made. 09 Q. The same year as the Maaherra case was decided, 1997; is 10 that the year that you're referring to? 11 A. It would be '97 then. 12 Q. Did you make a written notation of the conversation that 13 you had with Mr. McMullan? 14 A. I did. 15 Q. And why did you do that? 16 A. Because I was utterly -- I was shocked and very 17 perplexed. I thought things were going along very well and I 18 thought the attitudes had changed completely as far as the 19 animosity toward the two organizations. And this was a very 20 personal statement. Harry made it very clear what he thought 21 and also made it very clear that anything he says is strictly 22 in the open. 23 Q. Out in the open? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Would you look in the black binders that are off your 00745 { 2:41:34pm} 01 right shoulder for the tabbed exhibit 41. 02 A. Okay. 03 Q. Do you recognize Urantia Foundation exhibit 41? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Tell the jury what exhibit 41 is. 06 A. Read it? 07 Q. No. Just tell them what it is, generally. 08 A. I sent an e-mail to The Urantia Foundation explaining 09 basically what happened that day at lunch and what was said. 10 Q. And why did you do that? 11 A. Because, there again, I was shocked at the negative 12 attitude and I guess -- what word could I use? -- the 13 determination to destroy the copyright. 14 MR. HILL: Your Honor, at this time we'd move Urantia 15 Foundation exhibit 41. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: We object on the basis it's hearsay, 17 Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Let me see the document. 19 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 20 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 21 THE COURT: He prepared it? 22 MR. HILL: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Al right. Now, it's not being introduced 24 to refresh his testimony. It's a past recollection recorded 25 and he's testified with regard to it. Why do you need the 00746 { 2:43:21pm} 01 document? 02 MR. HILL: I don't. 03 THE COURT: Okay. 04 MR. HILL: I was just going to show -- 05 THE COURT: You can have him testify, if he remembers 06 what it says, or you can refresh his recollection. I don't 07 think a past recollection recorded is admissible unless he 08 can't have his memory refreshed. 09 MR. HILL: Can I pull it up while I go over the 10 document with him and not tender it into evidence? 11 THE COURT: Well, no, you can't pull it up if it's 12 not in evidence but you can let him read it and then recite 13 what -- if his recollection is refreshed, he can say what it 14 says. 15 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 16 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 17 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Looking at Urantia Foundation exhibit 41, 18 does that refresh your recollection as to what you told Urantia 19 Foundation? 20 A. It does. 21 Q. Would you tell the jury precisely what you said to Urantia 22 Foundation. 23 THE COURT: No, just from your memory. If your 24 memory is refreshed, you can recite what you told them. 25 A. That Harry wanted to make it perfectly clear that he would 00747 { 2:44:36pm} 01 do everything within his power to destroy the copyright. And 02 that if he needed to, he would resign from The Fellowship 03 because The Fellowship would do everything -- at that time, 04 there were very positive efforts being made between The 05 Fellowship and The Foundation and he made it clear to me that 06 The Fellowship would do everything short of suicide to get 07 along with The Foundation, and if he had to, he would resign to 08 pursue his efforts with the copyright. 09 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Now, directing your attention to Christmas 10 season of 1997, did you attend a party at Mr. McMullan's house? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. And did you see Mr. McMullan at this party? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. And what, if anything, did you tell Mr. McMullan at this 15 party? 16 A. Well, one of the trustees, Richard Keeler, who I had 17 talked to before, wanted, at a convenient time, not 18 particularly this time, but at a convenient time to pass along 19 to Harry that he was praying for Harry every day and I thought 20 I found a convenient time in the kitchen in Harry's house and 21 told him that very thing. And should I go into the reaction? 22 The reaction was -- 23 Q. Sure. 24 A. -- he was totally incensed, totally incensed, and asked 25 why I was there, that this was a Fellowship gathering and I'm a 00748 { 2:46:26pm} 01 Foundation supporter. 02 Q. Did he ask you to leave? 03 A. Well, I gestured to the folks around me that I love these 04 people, that I've grown up with them, cared a lot about them. 05 They're my brothers and my sisters. And he says, "Well, you 06 simply don't belong here. Why don't you just leave." And I 07 went over to Veldon and Charleen Marrow and explained the 08 situation, if I should leave, that it's Harry's house and I 09 would respect his wishes, and I was asked to stay. 10 Q. And presently, are you a member of The Foundation's 11 affiliate International Urantia Association? 12 A. I am. 13 Q. Are you also a member of The Fellowship? 14 A. I am. 15 MR. HILL: No further questions, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Cross? 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 19 Q. Did I hear you correctly; you did not leave, you stayed? 20 A. I did stay. 21 Q. Is it accurate to state Mr. McMullan has kind of a hair 22 trigger? 23 A. Generally not. Generally, he's very, very well -- he 24 handles himself very well. 25 Q. With respect to the copyright, Mr. McMullan has every 00749 { 2:47:59pm} 01 right to attempt to come into this court to establish that the 02 copyright is invalid, doesn't he? 03 A. According to the law, yes. 04 Q. All right. Is there anything wrong with that? 05 A. Not that I'm aware of. 06 Q. And now when he published Jesus - A New Revelation, you 07 bought some copies of it? 08 A. I did. 09 Q. And did you indicate to him that you thought it was a 10 wonderful work? 11 A. I indicated that I personally liked the copy of it and I 12 bought extras to show -- we have an association up in Boise and 13 I brought extra copies to show people and see what the fuss was 14 about because there was a big turmoil over it and I didn't 15 think people could make a decision without seeing what it was 16 about in the first place. But I personally have a copy and I 17 do read it. 18 Q. And you essentially asked Mr. McMullan to accept your 19 apology about your negative reaction to his idea to do that, 20 didn't you? 21 A. No. I asked him -- say that again, please. 22 Q. All right. My question to you was: Didn't you render an 23 apology to Mr. McMullan after reading the book after having 24 expressed to him your thoughts about the fact that it should 25 not be published? 00750 { 2:49:31pm} 01 A. I offered an apology to Mr. McMullan in Chicago at 533 02 Diversey during another gathering. 03 Q. Did you send him an e-mail? 04 A. I may have. We corresponded two or three times. 05 Q. Did you send him an e-mail July 24th, 1999 that said, in 06 part, "Please accept my apologies. You have produced a 07 wonderful and palatable work"? 08 A. I'm not sure. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: May I show this to the witness -- 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: -- to refresh his recollection? 12 A. "Palatable work." 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Isn't that what I said? 14 A. I just -- maybe you did. 15 Right, I did send that. And I do; I believe that -- 16 THE WITNESS: Can I speak? 17 THE COURT: Well, there's no question before you 18 right now. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: I have nothing further. 20 THE COURT: Redirect? 21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. HILL: 23 Q. Sure. Go ahead. What's your explanation? 24 A. Personally, my personal opinion is I enjoy having a 25 part -- 00751 { 2:50:57pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, that's not relevant. 02 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him. 03 A. I personally enjoy having a part IV that I can keep by my 04 bedside and I can read at my leisure or take on a backpack 05 trip. 06 So, when Harry did this, that fit that bill, and I read 07 it. I use it for my own personal study. I found that I can't 08 use it in study groups. New people are not interested in it at 09 all and the majority of the people that I showed it to at study 10 groups and that were totally against it. 11 Q. And did people being for it or against it, in your 12 experience, have anything to do with the legal merits of 13 whether or not it is or is not a copyright infringing work? 14 A. Say that again, please. 15 Q. Well, do you listen to music? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. What kind of music do you like? 18 A. Classic rock and different types. 19 Q. Have you ever been to a concert? 20 A. Many. 21 Q. What's the last concert you went to? The last good 22 concert. 23 A. The last really good concert? 24 Q. Yeah. 25 A. Roger Waters. 00752 { 2:52:24pm} 01 Q. The guitarist for Pink Floyd? 02 A. Bass player. 03 Q. Bass player. 04 Let's say somebody gave you a bootleg tape of Roger Waters 05 in concert. You'd enjoy it, wouldn't you? 06 A. I would. 07 Q. Wouldn't make it nonetheless a bootleg tape though, would 08 it? 09 A. Oh, no, no, no. 10 MR. HILL: No more questions. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: From here? 12 THE COURT: Go ahead. 13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 15 Q. The new people that you said they would rather not use 16 that book, what do they use, the full Urantia Book? 17 A. The small blue copy. 18 Q. Is that the -- under your left hand? 19 A. I haven't seen this one. 20 Q. Similar to that? 21 A. Well, it's one produced by The Foundation with the vinyl 22 cover. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I don't see it here. 25 Q. And that's something that they bought from The Foundation? 00753 { 2:53:17pm} 01 A. Or a book store. 02 Q. But that's published by The Foundation? 03 A. Correct. 04 Q. And that is The Urantia Book? 05 A. Correct. 06 Q. The entire book with all four parts of it? 07 A. Correct. 08 Q. They'd rather use that? 09 A. Correct. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 11 THE COURT: You may step down. You'll be excused. 12 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 13 THE COURT: Do you want to call your next witness or 14 take a recess? 15 MR. HILL: Let's take a recess. 16 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll 17 be recessed for 15 minutes. Be back in the jury box at the end 18 of that time, and I'll remind you of my previous admonition. 19 Court is in recess. 20 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 21 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 22 THE JURY:) 23 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 24 MR. HILL: Thank you, Judge. We call Tonia Baney. 25 (WITNESS SWORN) 00754 { 3:16:07pm} 01 TONIA K. BANEY, 02 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 03 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 04 THE COURT: Be seated, please. State your full name 05 and spell your last name. 06 THE WITNESS: My name is Tonia K. Baney. 07 THE COURT: You're going to need to pull that 08 microphone closer. 09 THE WITNESS: My name is Tonia K. Baney, B-A-N-E-Y. 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. HILL: 12 Q. Ms. Baney, tell the jury just a little bit about 13 yourself. Where do you live? 14 A. I live at 533 on the third floor. I was born and raised 15 in Wisconsin. I went to the University of Wisconsin, married a 16 Canadian, moved to Vancouver, British Columbia, where we 17 discovered The Urantia Book, my husband and I, in the box of 18 books left by a friend in our basement. Very odd. But my 19 husband and I were very interested in spiritual matters. We 20 both were looking for additional answers besides the Bible, 21 which we were both interested in as well, and my husband 22 brought the book into the kitchen one day after looking through 23 someone else's books, by the way, and open to the table of 24 contents, saying, "Well, this is what we've been looking for." 25 I remember saying to him, "A book? This book? Another book?" 00755 { 3:17:49pm} 01 We had read many books of philosophy and theology and looking 02 at all the religions. So I was surprised. 03 But upon examining the book, it was fascinating. And for 04 several years after that, we argued about who would get this 05 one book until we got another one. That was in 1967. 06 Then we moved to Maui in 1977 and lived in Maui for 19 07 years and then came to Chicago five years ago. We have one 08 child and I have two grandchildren, a boy and a girl, and they 09 live in New York. They did live in Maui, but when grandma and 10 grandpa went to 533, they decided they would go back to her 11 parent's area in New York. So, now we're all a little closer 12 than Maui. Maui takes eight-and-a-half hours to get there from 13 Chicago. 14 Q. You're referring to 533. Is that 533 Diversey Parkway? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What is the significance of 533 Diversey Parkway? 17 A. Well, as a Urantia Book reader, it is the place where we 18 feel The Urantia Book and we know The Urantia Book came into 19 being. It's a place where The Forum studied the papers for 20 many years. It's the home of Dr. Sadler. It's architecturally 21 important as well in the City of Chicago. That does it. 22 Q. And what is your present position? 23 A. I'm executive director of Urantia Foundation. 24 Q. And how long have you held that position? 25 A. For five years. 00756 { 3:19:45pm} 01 Q. And prior to holding that position, what did you do? 02 A. Well, I have a varied background. I've worked for the 03 government of -- Canadian government in research on projects 04 that researched photography and then wrote papers for the 05 university and for the library projects there in British 06 Columbia. 07 When I moved to Chicago -- excuse me -- when I moved to 08 Maui, I started an advertising agency and did that for four 09 years, was very successful. I then went into the head of 10 advertising and marketing for a couple of -- a land company on 11 Maui. From there, I went into the management of destination -- 12 marketing destination for Wailua Marketing Company on Maui 13 which at that time I managed $11 million worth of assets and 14 traveled around the world promoting Maui as a destination and 15 Wailua as a destination within the destination of Maui. 16 I'm also a painter. I have done many portraits in my 17 day. I started when I was a very young person. 18 I was born and raised in Wisconsin right next to Spring 19 Green, Wisconsin. My family come from people who are 20 art-inclined so I was always thought to be the artist in the 21 family and I was trained in art as well. I learned business 22 the hard way. 23 Q. Is this your first time to testify in a jury trial? 24 A. No, sir, it is not, unfortunately. 25 Q. And is this your first time to testify in a jury trial 00757 { 3:21:41pm} 01 about something relating to The Urantia Book? 02 A. No, it is not. 03 Q. Tell the jury about the last time you testified in 04 connection with The Urantia Book. 05 A. Well, I was called by the prosecutor on the big island of 06 Hawaii, which Hawaii is the name of the big island, and at that 07 time I was not yet the executive director of Urantia 08 Foundation. I was still in my home on Maui and he asked me to 09 testify as to what was in The Urantia Book concerning marijuana 10 and religion, and I was quite shocked. I said, "What exactly 11 are you talking about?" He said, "Well, there seems to be a 12 group here that says that this big blue book tells you to smoke 13 marijuana and that it is their religion." After I picked 14 myself up off the floor, I said, "That's ridiculous. I can't 15 even imagine that." He said, "Oh, good, you can testify." and 16 I said, "Well, I don't really want to do this. I mean, this is 17 not what I want to do." Subsequently, he did get me over there 18 via sending me a little piece of paper. 19 Q. A subpoena? 20 A. Yes, a subpoena, yes. And by that time I was in Chicago 21 starting my new position and so I had to fly back to the big 22 island. Essentially what I testified on were passages in The 23 Urantia Book that told us about that, you know, 24 institutionalized religion and some of these other areas also 25 talking about the passages which they -- they cited the reason 00758 { 3:23:49pm} 01 thinking that The Urantia Book had something to do with 02 marijuana had to do with Jesus being a boat builder, carpenter 03 and boat builder, and handling sails which at that time had to 04 be made from hemp. So that didn't go anywhere and so my 05 position was just simply to read out of The Urantia Book the 06 areas that showed that that simply wasn't possible and, as a 07 consequence, he was definitely in the wrong. 08 Q. Is Urantia Foundation a church? 09 A. Oh, no, no. 10 Q. How do you see it as different from a church? 11 A. Well, a church is an institutionalized organization. It's 12 a lovely social organization. It's for those of us who want to 13 go and visit with our fellow man and people who believe the 14 same thing, who talk about the same subjects, who have the same 15 beliefs. Many of our churches and religions throughout the 16 world today have set beliefs, and if you don't believe in those 17 set beliefs, then you really can't be a part of that particular 18 culture or that particular religion. And, so, churches are -- 19 people choose, of course, you know, which church or synagogue 20 or culture that they're in, they choose, you know, what they 21 want to belong to. Many of us are born into our churches. I 22 sang in the choir and I was baptized and I'm a 23 congregationalist. So, that's how we come into our churches 24 and that's how we learn about God and that's how we learn about 25 whatever culture religion that we happen to be in. 00759 { 3:25:53pm} 01 The Urantia Book is a broad spectrum of science, 02 cosmology, religion, philosophy. And so it gives you a broad 03 idea of all of the faiths existent on the planet at this time 04 and allows you to choose what it is, number one, you know 05 already about the faith that you belong to, and, number two, 06 how you enlarge that faith and how you get a better 07 understanding of God, how you get a better understanding of 08 that spirit within, how you get a better understanding of the 09 future of what happens after we leave here. 10 So, I don't know if I answered the question. What was the 11 question? 12 Q. That's how you know when your answer is finished: when you 13 can't remember the question. 14 How is Urantia Foundation organized presently? 15 A. It has five trustees and -- yeah. 16 Q. And you? 17 A. And me, yes. 18 Q. And you're the executive director? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. As the executive director, what are your day-to-day 21 responsibilities with respect to Urantia Foundation? 22 A. Well, my primary responsibility, of course, is to enact 23 the policies of the board of trustees. They meet four times a 24 year and they meet on policy mostly and all of the myriad of 25 questions and answers that go along. But my day-to-day 00760 { 3:27:36pm} 01 responsibilities have to do with reader services. We have two 02 reader service people. They receive almost 10,000 -- or over 03 10,000 calls and e-mails a year. Distribution of The Urantia 04 Book which has to do with book fairs, which has to do -- and 05 those are all over the world -- which has to do with 06 conversations and communications with distributors, with book 07 stores. 08 Then there's the public relations and marketing part of 09 this which has to do with advertising in advance, which means 10 we do ads, we have events, and we talk to people everywhere on 11 what is The Urantia Book. 12 Then there is the publishing part. We have seven books 13 and we publish them all over the world, in France and in Spain 14 and in the United States, and the next Spanish book will be 15 printed in Colombia. I have to go to Colombia. I've had two 16 meetings with the printer so far. It looks like we will print 17 there next time. 18 Then on top of that, -- and, of course, each one of these 19 books have to be formatted, they have to be proofread, they 20 have to be printed, they have to be distributed, you have to 21 find a distributor in that particular country, you have to know 22 where your books are, you have to make sure. We are audited 23 every single year, by Arthur Andersen in the past 40 years, so 24 they have been -- I mean, this is tremendous as far as making 25 sure every single dime is accounted for every single month. 00761 { 3:29:24pm} 01 This is a very complicated process. 02 Q. Is Urantia Foundation a tax-exempt organization? 03 A. Yes, it is. 04 Q. So it's a not-for-profit? 05 A. It's not only not-for-profit but it's a public -- it's not 06 private. That means like Mr. McMullan's, I believe, is 07 private, I'm not sure, but a private nonprofit does not have to 08 get donations from a lot of people, whereas a public nonprofit 09 must get donations from a lot of people which means that you 10 have a broad spectrum of support from a lot of different people 11 and we get donations from all over the world at this point. 12 So, -- 13 THE COURT: Let me ask you this: How many paid 14 employees are at Urantia Foundation? 15 THE WITNESS: 10 or 11, I think. 16 THE COURT: 10 or 11? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Are they mostly staff people in the 19 offices where you're located? 20 THE WITNESS: Two of them are not. Well, actually -- 21 THE COURT: It's been testified that none of the 22 trustees are paid; is that correct? 23 THE WITNESS: No, they are not. 24 THE COURT: What are the sources of income of Urantia 25 Foundation aside and apart from the sale of The Urantia Book? 00762 { 3:30:35pm} 01 THE WITNESS: Donations. 02 THE COURT: I don't want to get into the details but 03 what proportion of your total income comes from the book as 04 compared to donations annually? 05 THE WITNESS: Annual, I think about 40/60. 06 THE COURT: 40/60 being -- 07 THE WITNESS: I think about 40 percent from the book 08 and 60 percent from donations. 09 THE COURT: Go ahead, counsel. 10 MR. HILL: Thank you, Your Honor. You're stealing my 11 thunder. 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 13 MR. HILL: That's okay. You asked the questions a 14 lot faster than I did. 15 THE COURT: You might take that as a hint, counselor. 16 MR. HILL: I walked right into that one. 17 A. We also do the -- I've lost it -- all of the accounting. 18 We have offices in Russia, in Finland, in France, in Australia, 19 two in Canada. We have offices coming up in Mexico and 20 Africa. We have 28 representatives around there that report to 21 the office. We have a manager of translations who has 70 22 translators that he manages alone. Or not alone but with us. 23 He's based in Finland. So, from there, he manages these people 24 around the world. 25 We have a web site, and we have several chat lists, and we 00763 { 3:31:59pm} 01 have many -- you know, a lot of traffic on this web site and we 02 have a man devoted to that as well. 03 We also have a fundraising department. We have many hats 04 in this office. So there's not one of us that only has one 05 hat. We all have two or three hats because we have more than 06 we can possibly do as far as work. We're a very small staff 07 and the staff are mostly Urantia Book readers and they're very, 08 very bright people but we have a lot of work. 09 Q. (BY MR. HILL) What about IUA or International Urantia 10 Association. Tell us how that fits into the equation. 11 A. Yes, yes. The IUA is the sister organization for Urantia 12 Foundation. It took the place of the Urantia Brotherhood. It 13 actually is the Urantia Brotherhood d/b/a International Urantia 14 Association. We did keep that corporation or that nonprofit 15 name. And it is -- it has 28 groups, local groups, and seven 16 national groups around the world. It has 1,200 members at this 17 point. It was formed in 1993. It was formed as the trustees 18 being the board, the executive board of this. That was done 19 simply because it was a new organization and we had to find 20 someone who would be willing to be the executive director for a 21 length of time, but the charter is now being done so it will be 22 a completely democratic organization without the trustees 23 involved at all, and that will be happening within the next 24 year. But it is growing in leaps and bounds. The coordinator 25 of that group is also my employee -- 00764 { 3:34:02pm} 01 Q. Now, is -- 02 A. -- at this time. 03 Q. How is International Urantia Association -- how is it 04 organized? Is it like a church-type structure? 05 A. No. It's a fraternal social organization that has to do 06 with promoting study groups and having conferences and seminars 07 throughout the world to facilitate people coming together, 08 discussing The Urantia Book, having time to socialize, and 09 meeting new people from around the world that have the same 10 philosophy. 11 Q. Do you attend these conferences and seminars? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do people study The Urantia Book or portions thereof at 14 these events? 15 A. Oh, yes, yes. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Are there conferences or seminars that are devoted to 17 studying particular papers in The Urantia Book? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And is it -- Do they just pick a random paper and start 20 teaching a course on it or how does that work? 21 A. No, there's usually a theme and they can choose a paper, 22 say the thought adjusters, and have a whole seminar on that, 23 the spirit within, the father within. Or they'll choose 24 something such as God the Supreme, which is a very dense paper 25 in The Urantia Book. Or the Universal Father. Themes of this 00765 { 3:35:56pm} 01 kind. And they take a paper and examine it and all the 02 scholars come in and give what they think this paper says and 03 then another one comes in and gives another view of it. The 04 Urantia Book readers are individualists and they are -- what 05 one person -- what you may think of a paper, what you may 06 understand of a paper may be different than you may understand 07 of this paper, and the cross-fertilization of ideas is what 08 causes us to have another viewpoint. So, at these seminars and 09 conferences, it's wonderful to hear others, and you learn a 10 lot. 11 Q. When did you first begin to participate in any organized 12 activity relating to the study of The Urantia Book? 13 A. I think in the late '70s. 14 Q. And was this through Urantia Brotherhood? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you join Urantia Brotherhood? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And in the course of working within Urantia Brotherhood, 19 did you come to know Mr. McMullan? 20 A. I don't think so, not personally. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Just by seeing him across a room or I may have had lunch 23 with him in the early '70s. I can't remember. Either Marvin 24 Garwin or Harry. I can't remember which one. I wouldn't 25 normally mix them up but in the younger years, I don't know. 00766 { 3:37:39pm} 01 Q. Okay. When did -- Are you familiar with the event that 02 there's been some testimony to already regarding the schism 03 between Urantia Foundation and Urantia Brotherhood? 04 A. Yes, I am. 05 Q. And how did you become aware of that event? 06 A. Well, you have to remember that when you live on Maui, you 07 might as well live on the moon. It's the most isolated land 08 mass in the world. But I was the area coordinator for the 09 Fellowship for the State of Hawaii. I learned of it kind of 10 from a phone call that the split had happened, and since I was 11 a member, I was shocked, surprised, that no one asked me -- no 12 one asked me if we could do this. Anyway, that's how I learned 13 and I understood it to be a problem with distribution and with 14 different ideas about how the book should be spread. I didn't 15 at that time know Martin Myers. I did not know Richard 16 Keeler. I did not know Hoyt Caston. I knew the older trustees 17 that had since left the board. 18 Q. Okay. And are you a member of IUA? 19 A. Yes, I am. 20 Q. Are you a member of The Fellowship? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. And when is the first time you can recall meeting 23 Mr. McMullan? 24 A. I don't think I can recall first meeting him. I think 25 maybe in 1989 at Lake Forest but I didn't really meet him at 00767 { 3:39:41pm} 01 that time; I think I just saw him. I'm not quite sure about 02 that but I think it was later. I think actually -- you know, I 03 first -- got my first real close-up, should I say, of 04 Mr. McMullan at the case between The Fellowship and The 05 Foundation on the 1-88-2Urantia number, phone number. It was 06 in the judge's chambers and Harry -- I don't think -- he came 07 in, Harry came into the judge's chambers to observe. I'm not 08 sure if he was part of the group that was around the table. 09 Q. Okay. And have you had subsequent -- do you remember what 10 year that was, approximately? 11 A. It was 1997. 12 Q. And subsequent to that, have you had further interaction 13 with him? 14 A. Yes, yes. Urantia Foundation invited The Fellowship to 15 The Urantia Foundation at 533 to have a remembrance supper and 16 to have a social evening and I was there and spoke to Harry 17 then. I spoke to Harry I think previously when we had dinner 18 with Gard and four other people in California after a seminar 19 that we were having in that area. 20 Q. And are there any other occasions in which you've had any 21 social or other contact with him? 22 A. Well, yeah, a few others. We stayed in Virginia together 23 with a whole group of people that came together to really talk 24 about some of the problems that were coming up, and one of them 25 was Harry was anticipating printing the fourth part and Mo 00768 { 3:41:53pm} 01 Seigel and his wife were there, and Harry and a friend, and 02 there were about 10 of us or 12 of us that attempted to -- that 03 was the beginning kind of the idea of the millennium group, 04 that we would get together whenever we could and talk about our 05 issues and try to figure out a way for this to work. 06 Q. What do you mean by that, to try to figure out a way for 07 this to work? 08 A. Well, Harry seemed to be determined to print this book and 09 I recall Mo Seigel and Harry out in the middle of this huge 10 lawn toe to toe, nose to nose talking about something, but I 11 was to understand that it was about this fourth part, and I do 12 know that there were many conversations between others and 13 Harry about this book. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I missed a little bit of 15 the question. May I have a time reference on that last answer, 16 please? 17 THE COURT: Restate your question and the answer, 18 please. 19 Q. (BY MR. HILL) At what point in time was the -- 20 MR. HILL: I'll just ask it point blank, if that's 21 okay? 22 MR. ABOWITZ: Yeah, that's fine. 23 Q. (BY MR. HILL) At what point in time was this meeting that 24 you're describing? 25 A. It was the fall of 1998, in October. 00769 { 3:43:21pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 02 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And have you had -- have you had any 03 conversations with Mr. McMullan specifically about the 04 intellectual property rights of Urantia Foundation such as 05 copyright and trademark? 06 A. Well, in conversation, in referencing to Harry, I don't 07 think I -- I don't think I really stopped ever talking to him 08 about other things he could do rather than this based on the 09 copyright. Whether I spoke to him specifically about, "Harry, 10 you know, we have this copyright," no, I never ever said that 11 to Harry, but I would try to interest him in other projects 12 that he could do in concert with Urantia Foundation and, you 13 know, continue to open the door and try to get him to come in. 14 Q. And do you recall, as you sit here today, what any of the 15 proposals that you made consist of? 16 A. Well, I asked him if he would be interested in doing a 17 video on the life of Jesus and doing something about, you know, 18 like that, or perhaps even writing a book on the life of Jesus 19 but using the existing information that we have today and 20 adding to that revelation using parts of the fourth part of The 21 Urantia Book in order to get his ideas across. 22 Q. Okay. Do you recall a certain telephone conversation with 23 Mr. McMullan addressing, among other things, the intellectual 24 property rights of Urantia Foundation? 25 A. Yes, I do. 00770 { 3:45:21pm} 01 Q. And do you have a recollection from your own memory as to 02 what the contents of that conversation consisted of? 03 A. Well, Harry was -- you know, Harry was very upset with The 04 Urantia Foundation but you must understand this conversation 05 was very cordial, and I respect Harry's ideas and who he is, 06 and what he wants to do. That's his opinion. I think Harry 07 and I have a relationship in that way, that I hope he respects 08 what I believe in and I know I respect what he believes in. 09 But the conversation was really -- he was quite adamant that he 10 wanted to destroy the copyright and that he would keep me and 11 himself in court until the day we died, and he wanted to 12 liberate the copyright, and various other kind of shocking 13 statements done in a very cordial way. 14 I didn't really think he was serious at one point and I 15 said, "Are you sure about this?" and "Yes, I am." "Do you 16 really -- is this something you're devoted to?" and he seemed 17 to indicate he was very devoted to it. It shocked me because I 18 had never met anyone that said those kinds of things before, 19 and he's a very charming man, and I was so moved that I did 20 write a memo to file, certainly confidential, not to be brought 21 out in court, that's for sure, about what Harry had said to me 22 so that I could inform the trustees that he was -- seemed to be 23 very sincere about this and it was worrisome. 24 Q. Now, did there come a time after you became the executive 25 director of Urantia Foundation where you attended a conference 00771 { 3:47:38pm} 01 in San Diego? 02 A. Yes. That was a dinner party at a restaurant. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me, Your Honor. This series of 04 questions, could we have dates associated with them? 05 THE COURT: I'm sorry, counsel? 06 MR. ABOWITZ: May we have dates associated with these 07 events? 08 THE COURT: Yes, establish a time line, if you can. 09 If you can. 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, let me think just a second. 11 That would have been the spring of 1998 because I know 12 that's when it was. We were having dinner in a restaurant with 13 Gard Jameson, the president of the Fellowship, an IUA president 14 of a local organization, myself, and a member of IUA who was 15 Harry's friend at that time. And we were talking about 16 everything that we do and that we could do and I turned to 17 Harry and said, "Well, why don't you help us with a video? Why 18 don't we do a video together? Why don't we do something other 19 than, you know, what you're planning on doing?" And he 20 reiterated at that time again, you know, "I refuse, absolutely 21 refuse to do anything with Urantia Foundation," and was very, 22 very upset at me, and that was that. 23 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Now, you've got a copy of Jesus - A New 24 Revelation -- 25 A. Yes. 00772 { 3:49:15pm} 01 Q. -- there. Is Jesus - A New Revelation, in part, taken 02 from The Urantia Book? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. That's pretty well established at this point; correct? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Tell the jury how much -- Hold up for the jury the 07 portion of Jesus - A New Revelation that is taken right out of 08 The Urantia Book so that they can see the portion that's copied 09 versus what remains. 10 A. Do you want the table of contents? 11 Q. No. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Just the text. 14 That's the portion that's copied out of The Urantia Book? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. At some point after you became executive director of 17 Urantia Foundation, was there -- was there some turnover on The 18 Urantia Foundation board of trustees? 19 A. After I became executive director? Yes. 20 Q. Can you tell the jury what happened and who came onto the 21 board of trustees? 22 A. The two trustees were Pat Mundelius and Tom Burns. After 23 they left, it was very apparent that we had to find someone 24 immediately because we have a lot of business going on and it's 25 very difficult to find a person that, number one, has time to 00773 { 3:50:55pm} 01 be a trustee, and, number two, who have proven to know The 02 Urantia Book, who have devoted their lives to the principles 03 and doctrines of The Urantia Book and show that by the lives 04 that they live. And we also had this ongoing problem with 05 The Fellowship and we had just won the copyright back and they 06 were particularly upset about that, even though we did not take 07 their books, we allowed them to use the books that were left to 08 give away. We did not ask them for any money. They did give 09 us $10,000 for the translation fund. We negotiated the 10 settlement based on as good a well as we could possibly put 11 together here to hopefully heal some of the wounds. 12 We felt at that time that we had to make a statement, we 13 had to make some sort of large leap of faith in order to bring 14 these groups together as best we could, and the trustees 15 decided, in their wisdom, to bring on Gard Jameson and Mo 16 Seigel and we knew that both of them were devoted to The 17 Fellowship, we knew that. We knew it would be a struggle for 18 them to actually go into this new role of being a trustee 19 but -- and it was, to a certain extent, but they succeeded very 20 well and we're very happy with that, but I'm not sure about how 21 that's worked as well as we thought it would be with The 22 Fellowship. 23 Q. Do you recall a time shortly after they joined the board 24 of trustees where there was a meeting in Colorado between 25 yourself and the trustees? 00774 { 3:53:00pm} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. And what was the purpose of that meeting? 03 A. It was to talk about copyright and trademark. 04 Q. And were any decisions made in the course of that meeting? 05 A. I think that, as I recall, we made some decisions to look 06 again at our fair use and some of our policies because really 07 they hadn't been updated for many years and it was always okay 08 for anyone to use the three concentric circles personally but 09 we never put that in writing and we never put some of the other 10 policies that we just generally assumed people would 11 understand. We never really did it, you know, in the form that 12 people could pull off the Internet and see what it was. 13 I do know that during Martin Myers, he had some other -- 14 he had some other policies or he had some other ideas of what 15 the policies were. But this group of trustees devoted 16 themselves to making sure that the readers of The Urantia Book 17 understood what our policies were, to make them very clear, as 18 clear as we possibly could without getting incredibly legal so 19 you couldn't understand them at all. So that's kind of what I 20 remember as part of that meeting. But -- 21 Q. And do you recall for commercial works, that is, works 22 that are going to be sold, -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- what the fair-use policy that Urantia Foundation -- 25 A. Yes. 00775 { 3:54:50pm} 01 Q. -- implemented consisted of? 02 A. Right. It's 5,000 words for commercial use. 03 Q. And do you know whether or not the portions in Jesus - A 04 New Revelation exceed 5,000 words? 05 A. Oh, yes, it certainly does. 06 Q. Do you know approximately how many quoted words, 07 consecutively quoted words, are in there from The Urantia Book? 08 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, we'll stipulate -- 09 A. I do not. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: -- it's more than 5,000. 11 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect. 12 A. I do not. 13 MR. HILL: Well, but if she knows what the answer is 14 -- if she knows approximately what the answer is, she can 15 answer. 16 A. I know there are approximately 5- to 7,000 words in most 17 of the papers. 18 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And how many papers are copied in Jesus - A 19 New Revelation? 20 A. I think it's 33. I don't know. I can't remember. It's 21 1-something. I'm not good in math. It's 100 to 160 or 22 something. 23 Q. How many papers are in The Urantia Book? 24 A. 196. 25 Q. And where does Mr. McMullan begin? 00776 { 3:56:01pm} 01 A. I'm looking here. I can't remember which one that is. 02 Isn't that terrible? 03 MR. ABOWITZ: And we'll stipulate the papers are in 04 there too, Judge. 05 THE COURT: Let the record reflect. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: 121 to 196. 07 THE WITNESS: 121. Thank you. 08 Q. (BY MR. HILL) We'll let somebody else do the math. 09 A. Thank you. 10 Q. Now, was -- prior to actually -- well, when was the first 11 time you ever saw a copy of Jesus - A New Revelation? 12 A. At the conference in Vancouver, June 1999, when the 13 trustees gave a presentation on the unity of the movement, 14 wanting unity for all readers. 15 Q. And were members of Urantia Foundation and The Fellowship 16 present at this conference? 17 A. Yes, all five trustees were there and all the executive 18 committee of The Fellowship. Well, I don't know about that. I 19 don't know how many of them were there, but I believe I saw 20 most of the executive committee, yeah. 21 Q. And prior to seeing Jesus - A New Revelation, had the 22 topic of Mr. McMullan possibly publishing part IV of The 23 Urantia Book been something that was discussed among the 24 executives of Urantia Foundation? 25 A. Yes, absolutely. We knew that he was about to publish. 00777 { 3:57:39pm} 01 We'd been told that he had published. We hadn't seen the buck 02 yet nor had it become a public item. 03 Q. Once Urantia Foundation actually became aware of the 04 existence of Jesus - A New Revelation, what was the reaction on 05 the part of the board of trustees? 06 A. Well, I think -- I know, in fact, that they were all very 07 saddened by this, as you have heard here for the past week. 08 These folks were all good friends. They have a lot of history 09 together. They have worked together. They have the same set 10 of values. So the trustees of Urantia Foundation had worked 11 very hard to try to dissuade Harry from doing this and it 12 hadn't worked. So they felt that they had -- they had not 13 succeeded in what they had wanted to happen. 14 Q. And did the trustees advise Mr. McMullan of their view 15 with respect to Jesus - A New Revelation? 16 A. Yes. They -- they wrote a letter to him beforehand. 17 Q. Okay. And what about -- what was the result of that 18 letter? Was that successful? 19 A. No, it was not successful. 20 Q. And what, if anything, did the trustees next endeavor to 21 do? 22 A. Well, I know that they called him many times. Mo called 23 him, Gard spoke to him. They were the -- you know, they were 24 the people who were our conduits, kind of, as we say, to 25 Harry. But after this didn't work and the book came out, The 00778 { 3:59:46pm} 01 Foundation decided that it needed to do something but they 02 gave -- you know, they waited to see what would happen, and I 03 can't remember what someone -- I can't remember what happened 04 after that. I know that we did not do anything for a period of 05 time to see if he was going to actually put it in the book 06 stores and do it commercially because at the time that we saw 07 it, it was handed out at the conference and we weren't sure 08 that it was being sold as such. 09 Q. At some point later, did you come to develop an 10 understanding as to whether or not the book was being sold? 11 A. Yes, it was on the Internet on Amazon.com or 12 BarnesandNoble.com, I can't remember which, maybe both, and it 13 was advertised on The Fellowship web site and it was looked 14 at -- you know, he had fliers out and we had reports that he 15 was selling it and someone said they had seen it in book 16 stores. And, so, at that point we had to take this all very 17 seriously. 18 Q. And at some point in time, Urantia Foundation initiated a 19 court case against Mr. McMullan in Arizona, and there's been 20 some previous testimony to that effect. Do you recall that? 21 A. Yes. We waited as long as we possibly could. Many people 22 called Mr. McMullan and asked him to please stop. There was 23 quite a number of people who went up to him personally and 24 asked him to, please, to stop, but we were -- we made sure 25 before we did anything legally that he had every opportunity to 00779 { 4:01:39pm} 01 stop, that he had every opportunity not to do this. It wasn't 02 until the very last minute that we filed our case. 03 Q. And did seeing Jesus - A New Revelation advertised for 04 sale on the Internet concern you? 05 A. Oh, yes, absolutely. 06 Q. Can you explain why? 07 A. Well, I was involved with Urantia Foundation five years 08 ago and we did not have a copyright for two years and my job 09 when I came in was to kind of reorganize Urantia Foundation. 10 As you've heard previously, in the past there have been lots of 11 volunteers. There were paid employees as well in The 12 Brotherhood but mostly volunteers. And if any of you have a 13 business, you understand that it goes through the different 14 stages. You go through where it's just me, to a few employees, 15 to maybe your wife and kids, or we call it a mom-and-pop start. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, it's nonresponsive. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MR. HILL: Can you read back what my last question 19 was? I sort of got lost in the answer. 20 (THE PENDING QUESTION WAS READ BY THE COURT REPORTER) 21 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Ah, yes. 22 A. Okay. I'll go right to the -- cut to the chase. 23 My thing was to get this thing distributed in a 24 professional manner, not that it didn't have distributors 25 before but when I came in I engaged Ingrams and Baker-Taylor 00780 { 4:03:13pm} 01 and the top distributors in the United States immediately. And 02 when I went to the book fair to meet with my people, I had 03 found out that they had purchased the -- where is it? -- The 04 Fellowship book -- 05 Q. It may not be up there any more. 06 A. It's not up here any more. 07 -- The Fellowship book thinking it was ours, and in total 08 honesty telling me face-to-face, "I thought we had purchased 09 your book," and I said, "No, you have not." They're not our 10 only two distributors. We have about seven distributors in the 11 United States. So I was very concerned because they had 12 purchased quite a few. This happened all the way along, our 13 distribution and our book stores were getting completely 14 confused as to what book they were buying. The Fellowship book 15 as you saw had pictures all over it, it had Jesus, it had the 16 world, and it has an angel on it, and they thought that was 17 really pretty and they wanted that one because that would look 18 better on the shelf. 19 So, I had a problem with my distributors and book stores 20 not knowing what it is they were buying. Because they had 21 related The Urantia Book for all these years with The Urantia 22 Foundation, Baker-Taylor, we had them for years, and some of 23 the others we had had for years, some of the others, but they 24 didn't realize that there was another publisher, so they were 25 just buying the book assuming that that was ours and they 00781 { 4:04:57pm} 01 already had us down as the publishers. 02 So, I was concerned, yes. 03 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Now, Jesus - A New Revelation is not titled 04 "The Urantia Book" and it's not the full Urantia Book? 05 A. No. 06 Q. Does that in any way alleviate your concerns? 07 A. No, it does not. Publishers Weekly, which I read, not all 08 the time but I try to do my best, is a magazine for the trade 09 and one of the best -- one of the upward movements of books, 10 thank goodness, is spiritual, and they're growing in leaps and 11 bounds, and one of the best sellers is anything with Jesus on 12 the front. So, if someone has $20, this is what they're going 13 to buy rather than The Urantia Book. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, Your Honor, I don't think 15 this witness is qualified -- 16 A. Okay. Well, -- 17 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: I'd ask the jury be admonished to 19 disregard the last answer. 20 THE COURT: The jury is admonished to disregard the 21 last answer. 22 THE WITNESS: Sorry. That's my opinion. 23 MR. HILL: Yes, yes. 24 THE WITNESS: That's my opinion only. 25 MR. HILL: Yes. 00782 { 4:06:21pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. HILL) But it was your state of mind that Jesus - 02 A New Revelation was something that you ought be concerned 03 about? 04 A. Well, Harry's done a good job with this. It's beautiful. 05 I don't necessarily agree that that's a picture I would put on 06 there, but Harry is tasteful if nothing else, definitely. 07 Q. And how many years have you read The Urantia Book now? 08 A. 34 years. 09 Q. And are you pretty familiar with its contents at this 10 point? 11 A. Well, I don't call myself a scholar. 12 Q. Just out of curiosity, how do book sales of The Urantia 13 Book vary over about the last five-year period of time? 14 A. Well, I would have to -- I can't remember the exact 15 numbers but I know that in 1995 we sold about 21,000 books. In 16 1996, we sold about 22,000 books. In 1997, we sold about 17 25,000 books. In 199- -- what am I saying? In 1998, we sold 18 27,000 books. In 1999, we went down to 23,000 books. And in 19 the year 2000, we went up to 39,000 books. So, we're very 20 proud of our last year. 21 Q. And so it seems that in all of those years, except one, 22 Urantia Foundation's year-over-year sales of The Urantia Book 23 was increasing; is that true? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the one year it was not increasing was what year? 00783 { 4:08:25pm} 01 A. 1999. 02 Q. And was that the year Mr. McMullan published Jesus - A New 03 Revelation? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And at some point did you learn that Mr. McMullan had 06 ceased the distribution -- or Michael Foundation, excuse me, 07 had ceased the distributions of Jesus - A New Revelation? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And do you recall approximately what year that was in? 10 A. 1999. 11 Q. Okay. Do you recall approximately how many months during 12 1999 Jesus - A New Revelation was on the market, for lack of a 13 better phrase? 14 A. Well, I think that from June to probably November, I 15 believe -- I can't exactly remember -- but in there someplace 16 November, December. 17 Q. So during the year 2000 when book sales were as robust as 18 they've ever been, was The Urantia Book actually competing in 19 the marketplace with Jesus - A New Revelation? 20 A. In the year 2000? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No. 23 Q. And through the first five months of this year, do you 24 have any -- well, strike that. We'll move on. 25 MR. HILL: Judge, is it okay if I step back and get a 00784 { 4:09:52pm} 01 cup of water? 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Could we take a short recess? 03 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll 04 be recessed for five minutes. Be back in the jury box in five 05 minutes. Remember my previous admonition. 06 THE COURT: Court's in recess. 07 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 08 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 09 THE JURY:) 10 MR. HILL: Judge, the witness had to use the 11 restroom, so -- 12 THE COURT: Who is your next witness? 13 MR. HILL: My next witness is in the restroom, Your 14 Honor. 15 (PAUSE) 16 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honor. 17 Q. (BY MR. HILL) When you arrived at Urantia Foundation five 18 years ago, did you have any responsibility over the business 19 records and the historical records of Urantia Foundation? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have you engaged in any activity since you became 22 executive director with respect to the business records? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And historical records? 25 A. Yes. 00785 { 4:18:12pm} 01 Q. And can you just state for the record briefly what you've 02 done with regard to those records? 03 A. Well, we've tried to organize them in areas so that you 04 can easily find them. 05 Q. And does Urantia Foundation maintain much of its business 06 records and historical records? 07 A. I'm not sure because -- I mean, we maintain what we have. 08 As far as before I came here, my understanding was we had quite 09 a few records and I think part were Brotherhood and part were 10 Foundation and Martin Myers left and I'm not sure what he took 11 with him. But what we have, we have organized. 12 Q. Okay. And are you a person with custodial responsibility 13 over those records? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can you open up the black binder behind you to the tabbed 16 exhibit 103. 17 A. Excuse me? 18 Q. 103. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 20 THE COURT: Pardon? 21 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 22 THE COURT: Be admitted. 23 MR. HILL: We'll just call it up. 24 THE COURT: Working space is not all that 25 outstanding. 00786 { 4:19:45pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, would it help if we cleared 02 away some of that extraneous stuff up there? 03 THE COURT: Sure. Sure. We've got a 10-man working 04 party to clear some of the obstacles out of the way here. 05 THE WITNESS: The more the better. Thank you, sir. 06 A. Okay. 103? 07 THE COURT: Don't hide it from opposing counsel, 08 Mr. Abowitz. 09 A. 103? 10 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Yes. 11 A. Okay. I have it. 12 Q. And what is Urantia Foundation exhibit 103? 13 A. A picture of the building, 533 Diversey Parkway. 14 MR. HILL: Your Honor, since I'm having some 15 technical difficulty here, is it okay to publish that to the 16 jury? 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Turn in the black binder to Urantia 19 Foundation exhibit 72. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 21 THE COURT: Be admitted. 22 MR. HILL: Thank you. 23 A. Okay. I have it. 24 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Yeah. Would you tell the jury what Urantia 25 Foundation exhibit 72 is. 00787 { 4:21:53pm} 01 A. It is the composition and plates -- proposal for the 02 composition and plates by R. R. Donnelley & Sons, our printer 03 in Chicago, Illinois, and it's for approximately 2,000 pages 04 and the date is June 28th, 1941. 05 Q. Can you move the microphone a little closer? I think the 06 court reporter is having a hard time. I know I'm having a hard 07 time. 08 A. Is that all right? 09 Now, this is a proposal for composition and plates dated 10 June 28th, 1941 and the proposal is from R. R. Donnelley & Sons 11 Company in Chicago, Illinois. It's written to Mr. W. C. 12 Kellogg, 533 Diversey Boulevard, Chicago, Illinois. 13 Q. Would you turn to the next page and see whether or 14 not there are any -- are there any signatures on that? 15 A. Yes. Wilfred Kellogg. 16 Q. So -- 17 A. And someone from Donnelley. Oliver from Donnelley. 18 Q. Okay. And in layman's terms, is that the contract to have 19 the plates for The Urantia Book printed? 20 A. Yes. Yes, it is. 21 Q. And would you turn in the binder to the next exhibit, 22 exhibit 73. 23 A. Yes. I have it. 24 Q. Okay. Would you tell the -- is this a document that's 25 maintained in the records of Urantia Foundation? 00788 { 4:23:29pm} 01 A. Yes, it is. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 03 THE COURT: Be admitted. 04 MR. HILL: Okay. 05 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Tell the jury what Urantia Foundation 06 exhibit 73 is. 07 A. It is in accordance with -- it's Wilfred Kellogg setting 08 over to William Hales, William Sadler, Wilfred Kellogg, Emma 09 Christensen and Edith Cook and their successors and trusts as 10 trustees under declaration of trust all his rights, title and 11 interest to that certain agreement with R. R. Donnelley & 12 Sons. 13 I'm abbreviating it here. 14 But it's assigning his rights to Urantia Foundation. 15 Q. Okay. And so he's transferring the control and custody of 16 the plates over to the original board of trustees of Urantia 17 Foundation? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And what is that document dated? 20 A. It is dated September 11th, 1941. 21 Q. Exhibit 73 is dated -- 22 A. Well -- that's the only date I can find on it. This is 23 dated and into that certain agreement with R. R. Donnelley & 24 Sons Company dated June 28, 1941, being a proposal for 25 composition and plates. 00789 { 4:24:50pm} 01 Q. So that date is referring to the previous exhibit that we 02 were looking at? 03 A. Yes, it is. Yes, it is, uh-huh. 04 Q. Would you turn to exhibit 74 in the exhibit binder. 05 A. Yes, I have it. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 07 THE COURT: Be admitted. 08 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Just tell the jury -- give the jury a 09 summary of what exhibit 74 is. 10 A. Okay. It's Dr. Sadler asking permission to use quotations 11 from The Urantia Book in the course of studies for the Urantia 12 Brotherhood school called The Urantia Doctrine, The Theology of 13 The Urantia Book. 14 Q. And what is the date -- what is the year of that letter? 15 A. 1956, June 20th, 1956. 16 Q. And what year was The Urantia Book printed? 17 A. 1955. 18 Q. And Dr. Sadler was not actually ever a trustee of Urantia 19 Foundation, was he? 20 A. No, he was not. 21 Q. So in that letter he's writing asking for copyright 22 permission to quote from Urantia Foundation? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Turn to exhibit 75, the next exhibit in the binder, 25 please. 00790 { 4:26:09pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 02 THE COURT: Be admitted. 03 MR. HILL: Thank you, Your Honor. 04 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Is this Urantia Foundation's letter in 05 response to Dr. Sadler's request? 06 A. Yes, it is. 07 Q. And what did Urantia Foundation say? 08 A. They have given permission for his request. 09 Q. Okay. Take a look at Urantia Foundation exhibit 76. 10 A. Would you like the date on that? 11 Q. No. 12 A. It was fast. 13 Okay. This is another request for permission from 14 Dr. Sadler -- 15 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 16 THE COURT: Admitted. 17 A. -- to use the -- to use parts of the Urantia Book, to use 18 quotations from The Urantia Book for another study called The 19 Analytical Study of Part I of The Urantia Book. 20 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And would you also turn to exhibit 77, the 21 next exhibit in the binder. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 23 THE COURT: Be admitted. 24 A. This is granted, his request is granted by Emma 25 Christensen. 00791 { 4:27:18pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And what is the date on that letter? 02 A. 1965, October 18th. 03 Q. Now turn, if you would, to the next exhibit in the binder 04 which is Urantia Foundation exhibit 78. Is this a document 05 that is maintained by Urantia Foundation in its files? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. And would you just state briefly for the record what the 08 document is. 09 A. It's The Functional Relationship of The Foundation and 10 Brotherhood. 11 Q. And who is the author? 12 A. It's William R. Sadler, Jr. 13 Q. And in 1958 do you know whether or not Mr. Sadler was a 14 trustee of Urantia Foundation? 15 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I don't have -- 16 A. Yes, he was. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: -- objection to the authenticity but I 18 have a question about its relevance. 19 THE COURT: All right. What's the relevance? 20 MR. HILL: Well, I'm hoping to tie that up. It has 21 some language in it about the relationship between The Contact 22 Commission and Urantia Foundation. 23 THE COURT: Go ahead. Go ahead. 24 MR. HILL: Thank you. 25 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Directing your attention to -- Now, this 00792 { 4:28:23pm} 01 is not by Dr. Sadler, this is by his son; correct? 02 A. William Sadler, Jr., yes. 03 Q. Move the microphone a little closer to you. 04 A. William Sadler Jr., yes. 05 Q. Thank you. 06 And he was one of the original trustees of Urantia 07 Foundation? 08 A. Yes, he was. 09 Q. And looking at page 1, do you see anything on page 1 that 10 talks about the relationship between Urantia Foundation and The 11 Contact Commission? 12 A. Well, it looks like it's on the bottom here. This is an 13 autocratic group. It is non- -- oh, they're talking about 14 antagonis- -- antagonistal difference -- differential -- I 15 think that's antagonistic -- antagonistic differential between 16 Foundation and Brotherhood. These are so old, I can hardly 17 read them. On The Foundation, "This is an autocratic group. 18 It is non-elective. It derives its authority from the defunct 19 Contact Commission. This is former Contact Commission -- this 20 former Contact Commission was an autocratic body, autocratic in 21 the sense" -- is this what you wanted? 22 Q. Yeah. 23 A. Okay. "Autocratic in the sense it was accountable to no 24 electorate. The old commission was charged with the custodial 25 responsibility of the Urantia Papers, its secondary body, The 00793 { 4:29:53pm} 01 Foundation inherits the continuing responsibility for the 02 integrity and dissemination of The Urantia Book." 03 Q. And looking back up on page 1 under the topic "Historical 04 Background." 05 A. Okay. 06 Q. Do you see an expression of the two functions of Urantia 07 Foundation -- or excuse me -- the two functions that were to 08 be fulfilled by Urantia Foundation and Urantia Brotherhood? 09 A. Well, number one, Urantia Foundation was the custodial and 10 other responsibilities of the Contact Commissioners and, number 11 two would be The Brotherhood, of course, the religio-socio 12 functions of The Forum. 13 Q. And directing your attention to page 2 of the -- do you 14 see half way down the page, "The Ideal Role of The Foundation"? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Does it say -- mention anything about Urantia Foundation's 17 responsibilities with respect to copyright of The Urantia Book? 18 A. Besides its legal functions? 19 Q. Yes. Well, no. I mean, that is the legal function. 20 A. Okay. "It would appear that The Foundation could sustain 21 much of the same relationship to The Brotherhood and to the 22 general Urantian movement, that the two reservists sustain to 23 the general course of human events." 24 Q. But the language preceding that says, "Besides its legal 25 function." 00794 { 4:31:36pm} 01 A. "Besides its legal function of safeguarding the 02 copyright." 03 Q. Thank you. Can you find exhibit 3? 04 A. Number 3? Okay. 05 THE COURT: You may retrieve your published exhibit. 06 MR. HILL: Oh, thank you, Your Honor. 07 THE COURT: You may want to turn that over to Bev. 08 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I've got one. 09 A. 3-A? 10 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Yes. 11 A. 3-A. Okay. I have it. 12 Q. Do you recognize that document? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection, Judge. 15 MR. HILL: I think it's already in evidence. It's 16 already been stipulated to. 17 THE COURT: Be admitted. 18 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Just tell the jury what exhibit 3-A is. 19 A. A registration on the claim to copyright. 20 Q. And with what government agency is that registration 21 maintained? 22 A. The Copyright Office of the United States. 23 Q. And when was the copyright first registered? 24 A. October 12th, 1955. 25 Q. And who is it registered to? 00795 { 4:33:05pm} 01 A. Urantia Foundation. 02 Q. Turn to exhibit -- or actually on 3-A, who signed the 03 copyright application on behalf of Urantia Foundation? 04 A. William Sadler, Jr. 05 Q. And turn to exhibit 3-B, please. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 07 THE COURT: Be admitted. 08 A. Okay. 09 Q. (BY MR. HILL) What is exhibit 3-B? 10 A. 3-B is the additional registration of claim to copyright. 11 It's another copyright certificate. 12 Q. Is that the renewal -- 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. -- certificate? 15 A. Right. Yes, it is. It was 1983 by Thomas Kendall. 16 Q. Okay. And have you ever seen any indication in Urantia 17 Foundation's files that anyone other than Urantia Foundation 18 has claimed an ownership interest in the copyright in The 19 Urantia Book? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Turn in the binder, if you would, to Urantia Foundation 22 exhibit 82. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Be admitted. 25 A. Okay. Yes. 00796 { 4:35:13pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. HILL) In exhibit 82, would you turn to page 19. 02 A. Okay. I have that. 03 Q. What is this exhibit? Tell the jury what the exhibit is. 04 A. "74 Concepts and Doctrines that are New and Original as 05 Presented." 06 Q. No, no, no. What's the title of the document? 07 A. Oh. "Some Criticisms of The Urantia Book." 08 Q. By? 09 A. By Dr. Sadler, Dr. William S. Sadler. 10 Q. And on page 19, directing your attention to line item 17, 11 "Criticism." 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Third paragraph down, do you see that? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Okay. Would you read that paragraph to the jury. 16 A. Yes. "Neither did The Forum, more than 150 persons who 17 supplied the questions which brought forth the Urantia Papers, 18 ever detect any evidence of fraud." 19 Q. And do you see any indication on that page as to whether 20 or not anyone invested any money to get the book published? 21 It's the last paragraph. 22 A. Sorry. 23 Oh, yes, yes. Dr. Sadler is writing to his son. Would 24 you like me to read it? 25 Q. Yes, please. 00797 { 4:37:25pm} 01 A. "No, son" -- well, the question is: "Dad, is there anyone 02 making money out of this thing?" because he was in the Marine 03 Corps, and Dr. Sadler said, "No, son, but there are a number of 04 us who are putting money into it. By the time the book" -- 05 THE COURT: I can't hear you. I'm sorry. 06 THE WITNESS: Oh. 07 "There are a number of us who are putting money into it. 08 By the time the book was published, we had in time and money 09 put in over $100,000. Except for professional proofreading no 10 one was paid one cent during all the years of production and 11 publication of The Urantia Book." 12 MR. HILL: I don't have any other questions, Judge. 13 Thank you. 14 THE COURT: Cross-examination, Mr. Abowitz? 15 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have the copyright registration? 16 3, I think. No, the next -- 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: That is 3-B. Would you like 3-A? 18 MR. ABOWITZ: May I? I can't see it. 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 21 Q. In your review of the files of The Urantia Foundation, you 22 never found any indication that Dr. Sadler, Mr. Sadler, or 23 anybody on The Contact Commission or The Forum ever received an 24 assignment in writing from the patient; is that correct? 25 A. No. 00798 { 4:39:56pm} 01 Q. Is that correct? 02 A. Yes. 03 MR. HILL: Your Honor, can we approach? 04 THE COURT: Yes. 05 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 06 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 07 MR. HILL: I let this go yesterday. 08 THE COURT: Pardon? 09 MR. HILL: I said I let this go yesterday but we have 10 summary judgment on this proprietorship issue and these 11 questions about whether or not an assignment was received, I 12 think, are extremely prejudicial, and I'd ask the Court to 13 either consider giving them a cautionary instruction regarding 14 the fact that under the 1909 act there was no need for a 15 written assignment of copyright, common law copyright in an 16 unpublished manuscript, or, at a minimum, to give a closing 17 instruction on that specific point to the jury. 18 THE COURT: All right. I'll do that. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: The issue is on the renewal. 20 THE COURT: Pardon? 21 MR. ABOWITZ: The issue is on the renewal. 22 MR. HILL: No, it's not, Judge, because an assignment 23 is not necessary. 24 THE COURT: All right. What I'll do is give -- what 25 I promise to do is to give the appropriate instruction in 00799 { 4:41:05pm} 01 closing instructions as I perceive them to be at the time we 02 conclude our conference. I won't give a cautionary instruction 03 on it at this time. If there's some way that you have a 04 right to -- well, I don't think there would be any way you can. 05 MR. HILL: There's no way. That's exactly my point. 06 THE COURT: All right. I'll just overrule the 07 objection at this time. 08 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 09 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Let me address, please, exhibit 78. 11 Did you have that on the -- 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: No, sir. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: Did not? 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Defense exhibit 78? 15 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: No, sir. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: If I push one of those buttons, does it 18 mess up your deal? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Oh, no, sir. 20 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you have that in front of you, that 21 exhibit? 22 A. Pardon? 23 Q. 78, do you have that in front of you? 24 A. I'll look for it. 25 Q. Maybe what we can do is get it here and you won't have to 00800 { 4:42:25pm} 01 mess with that book. 02 Ms. Baney, can you see that on the screen in front of you 03 or would you rather have -- 04 A. I think maybe I might do better with a copy. 05 MR. ABOWITZ: May I help her, Judge? 06 THE COURT: Sure. 07 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Counsel asked you a question about the 08 document insofar as The Foundation, which was on the bottom of 09 page 1, and I believe you read what it says about The 10 Foundation. It says essentially that it was an autocratic 11 group? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And through the years, that continued to be a criticism of 14 The Foundation, did it not? 15 A. By some people. 16 Q. Right. And it is nonelective? 17 A. No. 18 Q. It says here it is nonelective. 19 A. No, it's nonelective. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. You're right. Am I supposed to say yes? 22 Q. Well, this document says they are -- it's not elective. 23 A. And that is true. 24 Q. Remains true? 25 A. Yes, sir. 00801 { 4:44:00pm} 01 Q. The trustees perpetuate themselves? 02 A. Yes, they do. 03 Q. Without election of the people that care about The Urantia 04 Book; correct? 05 A. That's correct. 06 Q. Thank you. 07 And it says, "It derives its authority from the" -- and I 08 can't read the next word. Can you? 09 A. Contact Commission. 10 Q. But it has a word that modifies it. 11 A. "It derives its authority from the defunct Contact 12 Commission." 13 Q. "Defunct." Okay. This former Contact Commission was an 14 autocratic body. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. It was made up of essentially the Sadler family? 17 A. The Contact Commission, essentially -- yes, they were all 18 related, correct. 19 Q. And it was -- the old commission was accountable to no 20 electors; correct? 21 A. I think it says, "The old commission was charged with a 22 custodial responsibility." 23 Q. I'm still on the first page. 24 A. At the bottom? 25 Q. Yeah. 00802 { 4:45:14pm} 01 A. Are you starting at the sentence at the last part of the 02 page? 03 Q. No, I just picked up the word. Let me use it again. 04 A. Oh, okay. 05 Q. The Contact Commission was not subject to any 06 electors. If somebody said, "Hey, I want Bill Sadler, Jr. off 07 of there," then too bad, that wasn't going to happen; right? 08 A. No. 09 Q. That's right? 10 A. Not unless they decided themselves. 11 Q. All right. But the Sadler family had to decide who was 12 and who wasn't part of The Contact Commission? 13 A. I don't think they added and subtracted anyone during the 14 whole time The Contact Commission was in existence. I believe 15 that once you became a Contact Commissioner, that was the group 16 that was involved on that level. Mainly probably because they 17 were family and they could trust each other. 18 Q. And my point was that there wasn't anybody on the outside 19 who was going to say, "Let's have an election and we don't want 20 Emma Christensen on The Contact Commission," that wasn't going 21 to happen? 22 A. Well, you know, Urantia Book readers are really 23 individualistic and I'm sure if anyone really wanted them off 24 of there, they would have made quite an issue of it but it 25 seems like the people they were working with, which was The 00803 { 4:46:34pm} 01 Forum, seemed to trust and like all of them. So I would 02 imagine that if there was a problem, that we would have heard 03 about it in some sort of -- some sort of memo or something. 04 Q. I'm not suggesting there was a problem. What I'm saying 05 is is that The Forum and the method by which this Contact 06 Commission was formed and conducted its business -- 07 A. Right. 08 Q. -- essentially was autocratic? 09 A. Absolutely. 10 Q. The same autocracy that now exists in The Foundation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Thank you. 13 Now, it says the old commission was charged with the 14 custodial responsibility of the Urantia Papers and The 15 Foundation inherits that responsibility. 16 A. Yes, that's what it says. 17 Q. Could you read to us what it says about The Brotherhood? 18 A. "The Brotherhood." "While The Brotherhood was originated 19 by The Foundation, it is destined increasingly to become a 20 republican institution." 21 Q. Does that mean democrat/republican? 22 A. I think so. 23 Q. Or does it mean republican in the sense of a participating 24 organization? 25 A. I think it perhaps meant both. I have no idea. 00804 { 4:48:03pm} 01 Q. Okay. I was going to say, this doesn't mean if Bill 02 Clinton couldn't be a member of your organization? 03 A. I don't think so. 04 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 05 A. Okay. You want me to continue? 06 Q. Please. 07 A. "It is designed to reflect the purpose and desires of its 08 members. It has all of the strengths and all of the weaknesses 09 of a democratic organization." 10 Q. Would you please continue. 11 A. Oh, yes. 12 "But The Brotherhood offers its members something which 13 The Foundation can never offer, to wit: The feeling of 14 participation and the feeling of belonging. It also offers its 15 members a feeling of responsibility, for in time the official 16 decisions of The Brotherhood will reflect the will, purpose, 17 and intent of its members." 18 Q. Has it been expressed even today that The Foundation 19 offers no feeling of participation? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Has it been expressed even today that with respect to The 22 Foundation, there is no feeling of belonging? 23 A. I don't know what you're talking about, so -- if you are 24 talking about people belonging to The Foundation, The 25 Foundation doesn't have a membership group except for IUA and 00805 { 4:49:29pm} 01 people all over the world belong to IUA and they do have a 02 feeling of belonging and we receive thousands and thousands of 03 letters a year. 04 Q. That wasn't my question. 05 A. Okay. Please help me. I'm not sure. 06 Q. My question is: Even today there are people that express 07 the thought and feeling and view that there is a lack of 08 feeling of belonging with respect to the relationship with The 09 Foundation? 10 A. I don't know that. I mean, I know that there are some 11 people who feel that they don't belong, but that's not the 12 majority. 13 Q. All right. 14 A. My experience is not the majority. 15 Q. Now, I want to cover this testimony that you had about the 16 sale of The Urantia Book. Would you please briefly run through 17 the sales numbers again for the last five years. 18 A. Briefly? 19 Q. Briefly. 20 A. Okay. 1995 was approximately -- and I'm -- 21 Q. I know these are estimates. 22 A. -- doing this so you can understand. Okay. 1995 was 23 25,000 -- or excuse me -- 1995 was 21,000. 1996 was 22,000. 24 1997 was 25,000. 1998 was 27,000. 1999 went down to 23,000. 25 And 2000 -- in year 2000 we went up to 39,000. 00806 { 4:51:12pm} 01 Q. Now, you testified that the -- 02 A. And those are audited -- those numbers are audited. The 03 actual numbers are audited by Arthur Andersen. 04 Q. So they're pretty close? 05 A. Yeah, they're pretty close. You can even them off to the 06 5. So they're closer to one or the other. 07 Q. The sales went down in 1999? 08 A. Yeah. 09 Q. Did you track the sales of other spiritual works to 10 determine whether they increased or decreased? 11 A. No, I didn't, but that is the year that spiritual works -- 12 actually, in 1998 spiritual works started to go up, I believe, 13 and you know, they're now doing very well. 14 Q. My question is: Did you -- 15 A. No, I did not track them. 16 Q. Okay. And the Jesus - A New Revelation was copyrighted 17 and published or printed in 1999? 18 A. Yes, it was. 19 Q. The end of the year? 20 A. No, in June. 21 Q. Middle of the year? 22 A. Yes. Six months. 23 Q. Do you know if it was sold in book stores? 24 A. I don't know that for a fact. 25 Q. Do you know if it was ever sold by distributors? 00807 { 4:52:35pm} 01 A. I believe it was sold on the Internet. I do not know that 02 it was sold by distributors. 03 Q. Okay. In any event, it wasn't sold by the high-powered 04 people that you got involved when you came on board to increase 05 the sales of The Urantia Book, was it? 06 A. Not yet. 07 Q. All right. It may happen. 08 A. I don't think so. I don't know. You may have more 09 information than I do. 10 Q. All right. Do you know how many of those books were sold 11 and given away? 12 A. I don't know. I think there were 2600 sold. I don't know 13 how many were given away. 14 Q. All right. 15 A. Do you? 16 Q. And are you familiar with Mr. Keeler's testimony that a 17 mere 2600 books would have no effect on Urantia Book sales? 18 A. I submit that Mr. Keeler is the president of The Urantia 19 Foundation, not the executive director. I'm not quite sure he 20 would know about the business of publication and publishing as 21 such. 22 Q. Well, that's his view and he's been on the board of 23 trustees for how long? 24 A. Well, for a good 11 years. 25 Q. And, in effect, he's your boss, isn't he? 00808 { 4:53:41pm} 01 A. Yes, he is. 02 Q. Okay. That raises a question and I didn't have a chance 03 to ask Mr. Jameson yesterday. Do you remember our discussion 04 about -- 05 A. Oh, yeah. 06 Q. -- the office space in Oklahoma City versus Chicago, 07 Boston, or wherever? 08 A. I remember it well. 09 Q. And these were my words but he described the executive 10 director as somebody with clout and I used the term "big 11 stick." 12 A. "Power," he said. 13 Q. "Power," and I said "big stick." 14 A. You said "big stick." 15 Q. Same thing? 16 A. No. I don't know. 17 Q. But you have a great deal of power as the executive 18 director of The Foundation, do you not? 19 A. I have five bosses. I do -- I make -- you know, their 20 policies, whatever they decide that are the policies of Urantia 21 Foundation, I try to initiate those policies. There is very 22 little I do without the okay from the trustees. 23 Q. But you do not have a full-time boss, if you will; is that 24 correct? 25 A. I speak to a trustee, if not two or three or four or five 00809 { 4:54:57pm} 01 of them every day. 02 Q. Okay. And essentially review what's going on? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And ask their permission to do something or refrain from 05 doing something? 06 A. Pretty much, or just inform them of the latest problem. 07 Particularly the president of The Foundation needs to have all 08 the information as much as possible. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have a second to get an exhibit? 10 Your Honor, I had like to discuss exhibit 87 which has 11 already been admitted into evidence. 12 THE COURT: Go ahead, counsel. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: May I hand a copy -- 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: -- to the witness? 16 Can we make a better projection of that? 17 Can you see that? Nobody can see it. There we go. 18 Better? 19 Would you scroll that up a little bit, please, and I'd 20 like you to highlight, please, this portion of the memo 21 starting with the words, "We see." 22 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) This is a memo or a copy of a press 23 release issued by you on behalf of The Foundation; is that 24 correct? 25 A. Yes. 00810 { 4:57:03pm} 01 Q. And it was released in July of 1999 after the printing of 02 Jesus - A New Revelation? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Is the expression of the counter-productivity of Jesus - A 05 New Revelation, these various points, were they the basis of a 06 discussion with the trustees before you issued this release? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And you say it's illegal and that's because of The 09 Foundation's position on the copyright? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. And, "It does not preserve the text, the 12 entire text, inviolate." What do you mean by that? 13 A. It doesn't preserve the entire Urantia Book text 14 inviolate. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Your Honor? 16 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) And what you mean by that is in order -- 17 A. The whole text. 18 Q. -- in order for this -- for it not to have that objection, 19 it would have to have all four parts? 20 A. Well, that would be just one of the objections. 21 Q. No, in terms of it being inviolate, the full text. We're 22 talking about paragraph 2 now or sentence number 2. 23 A. Well, as you know, our position is that we preserve the 24 text inviolate. That's what the Declaration of Trust says. So 25 that's our position. 00811 { 4:58:47pm} 01 Q. My question is: What does that mean? 02 A. That means that we preserve the text inviolate. That's 03 our duty to do so. 04 Q. And that means the entire text of that book. It means 05 that's what has to be published for it not to be violated; is 06 that correct? 07 A. That's what we believe, yes. 08 Q. You believe that's a unified work and has to be presented 09 that way? 10 A. I believe that the book stands on its own and that it 11 needs to be together for anyone to fully understand all of the 12 parts, which are very complicated and there are -- you know, 13 they are very individual in many ways. For you to understand 14 one part sometimes means that you will be acquainted with 15 others but there are, of course, parts in The Urantia Book that 16 do stand alone on some of their -- the subject matter, but in 17 order to understand it in depth, you have to really read the 18 whole book. 19 Q. And that's why The Foundation has taken the position that 20 the text, the entire text, must remain inviolate? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. All right. It says here, "It encourages other people to 23 break up the book." 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What other people did it encourage? 00812 { 5:00:23pm} 01 A. Well, it hasn't yet but it would, if it continued the way 02 it was, and we did not protect our copyright, then other people 03 would gladly take out parts of The Urantia Book and publish 04 them separately or they may rewrite The Urantia Book to 05 whatever they think it should say. There are many Urantia Book 06 readers who would like to take out all the "hes" and put "shes" 07 or "persons" or requite The Urantia Book in that way. There 08 are other people who want to take out some of the papers that 09 they don't agree with and republish the book. It's very 10 interesting to see what people would do. 11 Q. So Mr. McMullan isn't the only one with those desires; is 12 that correct? 13 A. No. There's a French group that -- as any group in the 14 world that comes together, there's always a French group that 15 wants to do all sorts of odd and weird things and break the 16 law. 17 Q. Okay. Again, your position on breaking the law is because 18 of your position that the copyright is valid? 19 A. Well, of course. If you have a copyright, you assume it's 20 valid. 21 Q. "It presents Urantia teachings as a Christian cult." Is 22 that why you had some criticism about the Dali painting on the 23 cover? 24 A. Yes, it is. The Urantia Book, we are told, is for all 25 religions. If an Islamic person who practices his religion 00813 { 5:02:10pm} 01 sees Christ on the cover of a book, then they are not going to 02 have anything to do with it. A Buddhist is not going to be 03 interested. A Jew is not going to be particularly interested. 04 The Urantia Book explains all of these religions and adds to 05 them. And what the world does not need is another Christian 06 religious organization to hold up a book and say that this is 07 the only way. That is not the purpose of this Urantia Book. 08 The purpose of this book is to affect all people in all 09 countries in all cultures and all religions. 10 Q. Is there anything in Jesus - A New Revelation that says 11 this is the only way, this is the only way you can worship 12 Jesus, this is the only way you can find your God, this is the 13 only way that you can live your life? 14 A. No, not at this time but, as you know, Mr. McMullan was 15 forming a church and he brought a man in from Australia who was 16 pretty much that way, to a certain extent, and perhaps that's 17 why it didn't work. 18 Q. Well, isn't one of the great things about this country is 19 that if I don't want to go to your church on Sunday, I don't 20 have to, that I can go to my own? 21 A. Well, absolutely. And there's lots of churches to go to. 22 Q. And, as a matter of fact, most of our Christian religions 23 are Christian cults; they base themselves on the life of Jesus; 24 right? 25 A. Absolutely. 00814 { 5:03:47pm} 01 Q. Now, this says it's an affront to the unity initiatives. 02 Hasn't it been suggested that the best way to unify all these 03 disparate groups and squabbles is to put the copyright in the 04 public domain, to put the book in the public domain? 05 A. I don't know very many people who say that. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, is this a good stopping 07 point for the weekend? 08 THE COURT: Pardon? 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Is this a good stopping point for the 10 weekend? 11 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I tell 12 you what -- well, let me see counsel at the bench a minute 13 before I announce how long we're going to recess. 14 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 15 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 16 THE COURT: We may need to take up a couple or three 17 things before we resume Monday morning, so I'm thinking about 18 bringing them back at 10 o'clock, announcing that they can come 19 back at 10 o'clock so we can have at least an hour to discuss 20 any -- I've got to do some work on the instructions this 21 weekend and I understand you all haven't agreed entirely on the 22 proposed instructions yet, so I suggest that we have them back 23 at 10 o'clock on Monday. Does that fit with everybody's 24 schedule all right? 25 MR. HILL: That's fine. Just so you know, Judge, we 00815 { 5:05:06pm} 01 have -- we anticipate having four live witnesses after 02 Ms. Baney, and with any luck we should be finished on Monday. 03 THE COURT: Okay. I'm thinking sometime we're going 04 to instruct and argue sometime Tuesday. Does that sound about 05 right? 06 MR. HILL: That sounds like the plan. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, counsel, I may have like 15 08 minutes of rebuttal. 09 THE COURT: Oh, after he rests? 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Sure. 12 This witness, you still intend to continue cross- 13 examination? 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 17 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 18 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be 19 recessed for the weekend. As a matter of fact, I'm going to 20 give you a long weekend. I'm going to give you until 10 21 o'clock Monday morning. Be back in the jury assembly room at 22 10 o'clock rather than 9 o'clock. We have some matters that 23 we'll need to take up outside the presence of the jury Monday 24 morning and I don't see any value in your having to sit around 25 the jury assembly room while we're doing that. So be back in 00816 { 5:06:04pm} 01 the jury assembly room at 9 o'clock. 02 Now, I want to especially admonish you over the weekend 03 not to discuss this case among yourselves nor with anyone 04 else. If anyone attempts to discuss it with you or in your 05 presence, don't permit that and report it to me upon your 06 return Monday morning. Don't read or listen to anything in the 07 news media should there happen to be anything about that 08 because, again, I want to stress that we want you to make up 09 your mind with regard to what the facts are in this case based 10 upon the evidence in this case rather than attitudes or input 11 from the news media or anyone else or even from each other 12 until it goes into that jury assembly room. 13 With that admonition, I'll ask everyone to stand and 14 remain standing for the jurors to clear the courtroom. 15 Court's in recess. I'll expect counsel to be here or 16 available 9 o'clock Monday morning so if we have any matters to 17 attend to, we can. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor 19 THE COURT: Have a good weekend. 20 (THE EVENING RECESS WAS TAKEN) 21 (PLEASE REFER TO VOLUME V) 22 23