00376 { 9:04:27am} 01 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 02 FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA 03 04 MICHAEL FOUNDATION, INC., 04 05 Plaintiff, 05 06 vs. CASE NO. CV-00-0885-W 06 07 URANTIA FOUNDATION, et al., 07 08 Defendants. 08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 12 HAD THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 2001 13 BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEE R. WEST, SENIOR JUDGE PRESIDING 13 14 JURY TRIAL - VOLUME III OF VII 15 16 17 18 19 A P P E A R A N C E S 20 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MR. ROSS A. PLOURDE 20 MR. MURRAY E. ABOWITZ 21 Attorneys at Law 21 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 22 22 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: MR. STEVEN G. HILL 23 MR. PETER SCHOENTHALER 23 MR. ERIC MAURER 24 Attorneys at Law 24 Atlanta, Georgia 25 25 00377 { 9:04:27am} 01 INDEX OF VOLUME III 02 --------------------------------------------------------------- 03 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES (CONTINUED): 04 HARRY McMULLAN 05 DIRECT (By Mr. Abowitz) (Continued) ........... 379 05 CROSS (By Mr. Hill) ........................... 431 06 REDIRECT (By Mr. Abowitz) ..................... 518 06 RECROSS (By Mr. Hill) ......................... 528 07 Witness Excused .................................... 530 07 08 PLAINTIFF RESTS ......................................... 532 08 09 DEFENDANT'S WITNESSES: 09 10 FRANK GARD JAMESON, JR. 10 11 DIRECT (By Mr. Hill) .......................... 532 11 CROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ........................ 565 12 REDIRECT (By Mr. Hill) ........................ 577 12 RECROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ...................... 578 13 Witness Excused .................................... 578 13 14 ROBERT LEE DAVIS, IV 14 15 DIRECT (By Mr. Schoenthaler) .................. 580 15 CROSS (By Mr. Abowitz) ........................ 594 16 Witness Excused .................................... 601 16 17 ********** 18 00378 { 2:52:10pm} 01 MORNING SESSION 02 THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 2001 03 --------------------------------------------------------------- 04 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF 05 THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 06 THE COURT: Be seated. The jury is on its way. 07 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 08 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 09 THE COURT: Be seated, please, ladies and gentlemen 10 of the jury. 11 You may resume the stand, and I'll remind you that you're 12 under the same oath that was previously administered. 13 Before we start -- resume the questioning, let me ask the 14 jury if anything occurred during the recess that would in any 15 way prevent any of you from continuing to serve as a fair and 16 impartial juror in this case? 17 I gather not. 18 You may proceed, Mr. Abowitz. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT'D) 20 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 21 Q. Mr. McMullan, when we recessed yesterday, we were talking 22 about the Michael Foundation's publication of Jesus - A New 23 Revelation. I was about to get into and will get into now a 24 discussion of when Michael first contemplated, through you, 25 publishing that work. 00379 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. It was about in 1975. Michael Foundation -- pardon me -- 02 1995. Michael Foundation did not exist at the time, but in my 03 mind that is about when I thought about doing it separately. 04 Q. Did you have any people that were also interested in doing 05 it with you? 06 A. Yes, I did. 07 Q. And who were those people? 08 A. The person who was the initiating person, individual, to 09 get it going was a man named Mo Seigel. 10 Q. And Mr. Siegel -- how'd you know Mr. Siegel? 11 A. He had been a close friend of mine for 20 years, at least. 12 Q. And did he have some official role in either The Urantia 13 Foundation or The Urantia Brotherhood or The Urantia 14 Fellowship? 15 A. At the time, he had a relationship -- he was on the board 16 with me in The Urantia Fellowship. 17 Q. And this is 1995? 18 A. Yes, sir, 1994 or 1995. 19 Q. And what was your thought processes about publishing just 20 that portion of The Urantia Book? 21 A. The theory was that this is a way to bring Jesus to 22 people. 23 Q. Why separate it from the rest of the book? 24 A. Well, the entire book has all sorts of other things in it 25 as well, and sometimes when you separate something out and 00380 { 2:52:10pm} 01 focus on it, it has more of an appeal. It's just a wonderful 02 story. It doesn't have as much of the philosophy and some of 03 the other stuff that's in the first three parts, so it has the 04 appeal to people as if they're reading a novel. 05 Q. Did you at that time determine what portion of The Urantia 06 Book would be published in Jesus - A New Revelation, which 07 papers? 08 A. The -- pardon me. I have some hay fever or something this 09 morning. 10 The part IV is the life and teachings of Jesus in The 11 Urantia Book. The only issue was whether to leave in the very 12 first paper of it, which deals with instructions that Jesus got 13 in his preexistent devine life before coming down to earth to 14 incarnate in human form. It seemed to me that that particular 15 chapter was really kind of confusing apart from what you knew 16 earlier about the situation. So I left that one paper out. 17 Q. At that time, were you and Mr. Siegel of the view that 18 The Urantia Book was a unified work, as we've heard? 19 A. Oh, yes. 20 Q. And then how could you come -- how could you account for 21 publishing part of it if you thought it was a unified work? 22 A. Well, I didn't -- my thinking on this thing evolved. At 23 that time, it was only the situation that I knew the power of 24 this thing and so did he because we had both experienced Jesus 25 as a result of going through this book, going through this 00381 { 2:52:10pm} 01 part -- the fourth part of the book, which is now in this book, 02 and so it had had a very deep impact on both of us. And so the 03 problem of how to relate it to the rest of The Urantia Book at 04 that point had not been solved, but it was later. 05 Q. Okay. When was it solved? 06 A. It was solved a couple of -- oh, I guess about a year 07 before this was printed. 08 Q. How was it resolved? 09 A. It was resolved primarily through the index that's been 10 referred to. And so there's some terms in the fourth part of 11 The Urantia Book that -- for example, The Urantia Book says 12 that -- refers to the universe in which we live in as Nebadon. 13 It says that's the same way that earth is Urantia, the part of 14 the universe that we live in is Nebadon, and Jesus had a 15 preexistent -- a preincarnation existence and his name was 16 Michael. And so through part IV in here, there are references 17 in here to Michael did this or Michael did that and they would 18 make no sense if you didn't have the rest of the book. So what 19 I did was in the index, in the back, you can flip to Michael or 20 you can flip to Nebadon and there's just a little -- just 21 enough to let you know what it is and then a reference to the 22 remainder of The Urantia Book so that it can make sense. There 23 were a number of terms that were handled that way. 24 Q. For the benefit of the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 25 can you briefly tell us what the reference to Michael is in the 00382 { 2:52:10pm} 01 index of Jesus - A New Revelation? 02 A. Yeah. The reference is Michael of Nebadon and it says -- 03 the indexes say, "See also," and that means just other things, 04 "See also Christ, Creator, Sons and Jesus." And then in 05 brackets it has, "Creator son of our local universe who 06 incarnated on earth as Jesus of Nazareth. See Urantia Book 07 papers 21, 119 and 120." And those are three other papers that 08 deal extensively with Jesus in his preincarnated state. And 09 it's really important to know that. The view is that if you 10 have just that much, that's enough to make the part that's in 11 here make sense. And then if a person wants to know more, then 12 they know where to go in The Urantia Book. 13 Q. And in your view, that did not destroy the unified nature 14 of The Urantia Book? 15 A. Not at all. 16 Q. Were there any other people besides you and Mr. Siegel 17 involved in this enterprise at one time? 18 A. There was a third person who offered to finance the bulk 19 of it. 20 Q. And who was that? 21 A. Gard Jameson. 22 Q. If I may -- 23 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have -- I think it's exhibit 22. 24 Yeah, that's it. 25 Can you see that? Better? 00383 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Is this the man we're talking about? 02 A. Yes, it is. 03 Q. Now, at the time you and Mr. Siegel and Mr. Jameson were 04 talking about doing this, did you consider The Urantia 05 Foundation copyrighted? 06 A. At the time these discussions were being held, the book 07 was in the public domain. 08 Q. And were -- strike that. 09 Did Mr. Siegel and Mr. Jameson continue to be a part of 10 the venture? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What happened? 13 A. They became trustees of Urantia Foundation. 14 Q. What happened after they became trustees of The Urantia 15 Foundation? 16 A. Well, I thought the project was just as good as it ever 17 was and I continued with it. 18 Q. Did they? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why? 21 A. Well, I think they thought it was inconsistent with their 22 service as trustees of The Urantia Foundation. 23 Q. In what respect, do you know? 24 A. Well, Urantia Foundation didn't want it done, so if they 25 were going to be on that group, they would pretty well have to 00384 { 2:52:10pm} 01 go along with what the group wants to do. 02 MR. HILL: Your Honor, I object to the speculation. 03 THE COURT: Sustained. 04 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, prior to publishing the book, did 05 you approach Urantia Foundation with the idea that they would 06 be given some credit in your book for The Urantia Book? 07 A. Yes, I did. 08 Q. And precisely what did you offer? 09 A. Well, the thing that I offered was a method for them -- 10 for people that are interested in The Urantia Book as a result 11 of reading this to know where to buy The Urantia Book. 12 Q. So, if they read -- 13 A. So I was going to say, "If you want Urantia Books, write 14 Urantia Foundation with your name and address," and whatever 15 else they wanted to put in there, web site address or whatever. 16 Q. So if Jesus - A New Revelation provoked interest in 17 The Urantia Book, people would know where to get it? 18 A. That was the idea. 19 Q. All right. And this is the same Mr. Jameson that was part 20 of the venture who is now a trustee of The Urantia Foundation? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And you wrote this e-mail to him and said essentially, 23 "What's going on?" 24 A. Well, I think I said, "Since I haven't heard from you, I 25 presume you don't want to do it but I wanted to make sure." We 00385 { 2:52:10pm} 01 were getting the book type set, so it was time to move one way 02 or the other. 03 Q. Please read the response here from Gard Jameson. 04 A. "Thanks, my friend. Your presumption is correct. We're 05 making progress but it takes time. Georges is quite 06 conservative. You'd be proud of your brother, Mo. I hope to 07 see you soon. Have a great holiday with family. Our family 08 sends a big hug to you all. Love, Gard." 09 Q. This says, "We're making progress." Did progress ever go 10 beyond that note? 11 A. I would have to read into it what he's referring to, and 12 I'm sure it would be objected to. 13 Q. No, my question was: Did the progress ever get beyond 14 this exchange of communication? 15 MR. HILL: Your Honor, I object. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him explain what he 17 understands progress to be. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: I'll ask. 19 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) What did you understand by this message? 20 A. What I took it to mean was it would tie into the next 21 sentence, "Georges is quite conservative," that there was a 22 faction in Urantia Foundation that wanted to have a more 23 progressive attitude toward doing things with The Urantia Book. 24 Q. And -- 25 A. And he says, "And they're making progress in that regard 00386 { 2:52:10pm} 01 but it takes time." That's how I interpreted it. 02 Q. Georges is a French gentleman -- 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. -- that we heard about yesterday? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Well, did anything happen beyond this exchange? 07 A. Well, I got sued. 08 Q. Other than that? 09 A. No. Well, I'm not sure what you mean. 10 Q. All right. But there was never any more communication 11 about your offer to give them attribution in Jesus - A New 12 Revelation; correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Now, you were in the courtroom yesterday and I asked 15 Mr. Keeler why The Foundation wasn't interested in cooperating 16 with you in getting the attribution that you talked about and 17 he gave us an example of a rustler. Were you here in the 18 courtroom when that occurred? 19 A. Yes, I was. 20 Q. How do you relate -- What is your view of what occurred 21 with the publication of Jesus - A New Revelation? In that 22 example, were you a rustler? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How do you characterize it? 25 A. Well, I was thinking -- I woke up in the middle of the 00387 { 2:52:10pm} 01 night thinking about it and I thought that where he thought 02 there were cattle, there were deer, and where he thought it was 03 his ranch, it was a state park, and he posted the state park so 04 that none of the rest of us can go on it without his 05 permission. 06 Q. So, is it your view that you're talking about land rather 07 than what's on the land? 08 A. Well, you know, his analogy is fine if there's a right to 09 do what he claims to do. If he has -- If he has a legal right 10 to restrict anybody from doing anything with it, then he's 11 right. But if it's in the public domain, which we believe it 12 is, then he can use it but so can everybody else. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I don't want any of his cattle. I just want -- never 15 mind. That's all. 16 Q. Well, finish your thought. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Were you trying to set him up with this, that if he took 19 this attribution, if The Foundation took the attribution, then 20 you could say you've waived any right to police this? 21 A. Not at all. I would have been very pleased for them to 22 say, "We don't agree with this," or whatever. Or they could 23 have -- one thing I suggested to him was that, you know, "Look, 24 we can work it out somewhere where it doesn't look like you 25 have agreed to even have it in there, that I'm just saying 00388 { 2:52:10pm} 01 it." But I don't want to say it, I don't want to say The 02 Urantia Foundation is even -- that you can put them in there in 03 a way that might imply that Michael Foundation was the same as 04 Urantia Foundation because that looked like it was a road to 05 trouble, so I wanted their permission to do it, if they wanted 06 it in there. 07 Q. And that never occurred? 08 A. No. 09 Q. Okay. Now, have you -- well, let me see. The board of 10 trustees is composed of a number of people that include 11 Mr. Keeler, who was a friend of yours? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Siegel, who was a friend of yours? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Mr. Jameson, who was a friend of yours? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And this situation has come between friends; is that 18 right? 19 A. Yes, it has. 20 Q. Now, have you published any other works involving The 21 Urantia Book? 22 A. Yes, I have. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: If I may, Judge? 24 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me show you exhibit 77. Would you 25 identify that? 00389 { 2:52:10pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: I think that that may be admitted. May 02 it? 03 MR. HILL: Yeah, we don't have any objection to it. 04 THE COURT: It will be admitted. 05 A. This is a booklet entitled When Things Go Wrong. 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) And can you explain to the Court and the 07 ladies and gentlemen of the jury what it is? 08 A. Yes, I can. It's a book that I wrote at a time when I was 09 having some personal marriage difficulties, actually, and I was 10 feeling pretty low. So I was looking through The Urantia Book 11 to try to find things to, you know, spiritually restabilize 12 myself. And in the course of doing it, I thought, "You know, a 13 lot of people have these problems." So I tried to think of it 14 in terms of the areas that people really have problems. One 15 area was when you're feeling lonely or isolated. Another one 16 is when you're in doubt or confusion. Another one is when 17 you're feeling guilty. And another one is when you're sick or 18 having hardship. Another is when you're feeling discouraged or 19 defeated. And so on. Anyway, there were seven of these 20 things. So then I wrote an introduction to each of those and 21 then followed it up with, oh, maybe 10 or 15 selections from 22 The Urantia Book in each category that I thought would uplift 23 people. 24 Q. Who published that? 25 A. This was published by Michael Foundation. 00390 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And when was it published? 02 A. This particular edition was published in 1997, but I think 03 the first edition of it was published around 1989 or '90, 04 somewhere in there. 05 Q. Did you have discussions with The Urantia Foundation about 06 the publication by Michael Foundation of that pamphlet? 07 A. It's hard to tell. My recollection is that I wrote them a 08 letter asking for copyright permission when I did it, but 09 nothing ever happened beyond that point. Either they didn't 10 respond to me or I lost the letter or -- I don't know. I'm not 11 sure what happened from that point. 12 Q. Is that book still being published by Michael? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. How many copies of that book have been distributed? 15 A. Oh, I'm not sure. 5- or 6,000, probably. Maybe 10,000 at 16 the most. 17 Q. Have you received comments about that book? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Favorable, unfavorable? 20 A. I don't think I've ever received an unfavorable comment 21 about it. They either keep their opinions to themselves or -- 22 you know, I don't know. But a lot of people seem to like it. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the witness again, 24 Judge? 25 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me show you what's been marked as 00391 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Defendant's Exhibit 38. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel, I guess it may be admitted 03 since it's on your list? 04 MR. HILL: No objection. 05 THE COURT: Be admitted. 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Would you tell us what that is, please, 07 sir. 08 A. This is a booklet called 21 Steps To A Spiritual 09 Awakening. 10 Q. And can you tell us when that was published? 11 A. I'm not sure when this particular -- This edition was 12 published in 1996 but it goes back probably 10 years before 13 that. 14 Q. And what was the impetus of your publishing that? 15 A. The emphasis is the same thing: this is a way to help 16 people find God. So there are different categories. It's not 17 that dissimilar in the structure to the other one. It starts 18 off recognizing our needs, believing in God, accepting God's 19 grace. It was based on the Alcoholics Anonymous 12 steps, but 20 it was expanded to be some other things. For example, the 21 12-step program doesn't have anything about Jesus in there. So 22 there are a few other things that I added but it was sort of 23 along those lines. And then there's an introduction and then 24 some parts from The Urantia Book from different places that 25 were quoted that pertain to that subject. 00392 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. How many copies of that have been distributed? 02 A. A few less than the other, probably. I don't know. 03 5,000. Somewhere in there. 04 Q. And it's still being distributed? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. You've received comment from people that have read it? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Favorable, unfavorable? 09 A. I've never heard an unfavorable comment. I've had lots of 10 favorable comments on it. 11 Q. Are there any other publications that stem from your 12 Urantia affairs in which you have either written, published, or 13 helped the project along that involves a writing? 14 A. Yes, I did -- I did a writing called The Keyword Index 15 around 1988 and '89. 16 Q. Is that different from the index that you have in front of 17 you? 18 A. It's totally different. 19 Q. In what way? 20 A. It was very primitive compared to this but it takes the 21 table of contents out of The Urantia Book and it -- I had just 22 gotten a computer and I had a little word processing sort of 23 thing there and I took the key words and arranged it so that 24 there could be some alphabetical way to find the big subjects, 25 at least the ones that are listed in the table of contents. 00393 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And who publishes that? 02 A. Urantia Foundation. 03 Q. And did they give you any attribution on it? 04 A. No. 05 Q. It's being published today? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Does it still have a market, given your new better edition 08 index? 09 A. I don't know why it would but -- I don't know. 10 Q. We've referred to Michael Foundation. Can you tell us 11 what it is? 12 A. It is a nonprofit foundation that was founded, I believe, 13 in the fall of 1995. 14 Q. For what purpose? 15 A. It was to be the vehicle for a Urantia church here in 16 Oklahoma City was the original vehicle. 17 Q. And was the Urantia church to be called some version of 18 Michael? 19 A. It was going to be called the Church of Christ Michael. 20 Q. Why did you establish a foundation to do that? 21 A. Well, if you're going to do anything that requires a bunch 22 of money, there needs to be some method of deducting the 23 contributions for the contributors for their taxes, or else it 24 costs them twice as much. 25 Q. So, thus the vehicle for The Foundation? 00394 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. That's right. That was the original vehicle. 02 Q. Did the church ever get off the ground? 03 A. Well, it was off the ground but it never -- in the sense 04 of physically it was off the ground but it never got off the 05 grounds in terms of an organizational church. 06 Q. When did this occur, this effort to build a church in 07 Oklahoma? 08 A. I hope I'm not mixing the years up but I think it was 09 1990- -- it was either -- it was formed either in the fall of 10 '95 or '96 and then it -- the minister came in a few months 11 later once we got his visa -- he's an Australian guy -- and he 12 was here for about -- it didn't really last that long for that 13 part. Maybe for four or five months. 14 Q. Can you tell us briefly what was involved in starting the 15 church? 16 A. Well, the main thing in starting the church is to get a 17 good pastor, a good minister. I found this man that I thought 18 was a very dynamic speaker and a deeply committed Urantia 19 believer and I thought he had -- I thought he had 20 organizational skills and I thought he would -- it would really 21 work out great. 22 Q. You say he was an Australian. Where did you find him? 23 A. I met him at a Urantia conference. 24 Q. And he secured a visa to come to the United States? 25 A. I secured the visa for him to come to the United States. 00395 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. As a pastor of a church? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And -- 04 A. As a religious worker, I think, was the actual legal 05 heading. 06 Q. And what happened to him and the church? 07 A. Well, the local Urantia community just didn't take to this 08 guy, and so it ended up -- you know, there was a mutual 09 distaste between most of the people here in the local community 10 toward -- his name is -- the man's name is Robert Crickett -- 11 toward Rob Crickett, and you can't have a church without a 12 congregation. So we had been fixing up this lovely building to 13 be our church. And then once, you know, once the -- I mean, a 14 building is just an empty old piece of nothing if you don't 15 have a vibrant congregation and a minister in there that can 16 inspire the people. And so that was the end of that effort to 17 create a Urantia church. 18 Q. Has there been another one? 19 A. Well, several people have done this in the country but 20 that's the only one that I've ever done. 21 Q. Is there another one on the horizon for Oklahoma? 22 A. I think I've done about all the church building I need to 23 do myself. I think it would be wonderful if it were but I 24 don't -- I think I've already -- it's amazing how difficult it 25 is to get a church going. I don't know if anybody has -- 00396 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. What other matters is Michael Foundation involved in other 02 than publication of books and this attempt to start a church in 03 Oklahoma? 04 A. I think that's about it. 05 Q. Are there other foundations that have been organized to be 06 involved in the works of Urantia? 07 A. Yes, there are a number of different organizations. 08 Q. In which you're involved? 09 A. There's one other one in which I'm involved. 10 Q. And that is? 11 A. Asoka Foundation. 12 Q. And what is The Asoka Foundation? 13 A. Asoka Foundation prints -- well, Asoka Foundation 14 originally printed this. 15 Q. When you refer to "this," what are you referring to? 16 A. 21 Steps To A Spiritual Awakening. 17 And it exists -- the original -- the original motive for 18 The Asoka Foundation was to give people who wanted to 19 contribute to Urantia causes a way to deduct their 20 contributions. So we filed -- this is back almost 20 years ago 21 -- we filed for a 501-C3 designation, which is a nonprofit 22 designation, and we registered under the broad range of things 23 that always had to be Urantia Book spiritual religious 24 activities. So, when people would want to do a particular 25 project, then we would allow them to give the money -- to send 00397 { 2:52:10pm} 01 their money to Asoka Foundation and then we, provided it fell 02 within the range of what we thought was legitimate under our 03 charter, then we would fund those things that they wanted to 04 do. The net effect was it enabled them to do it and get a tax 05 deduction. 06 Q. Now, there was a discussion yesterday about a conflict 07 that occurred in 1989 between The Foundation and The 08 Brotherhood. Can you briefly relate to us what that was? 09 A. It's one of these things that it's hard to know where to 10 start, but I've been involved in The Urantia Fellowship since 11 -- on the board since 1979. So the split you're talking about 12 occurred 10 years later and it was -- it's hard to say exactly 13 where it started but The Urantia Brotherhood was supposed to be 14 selling the books and getting -- sort of getting the word out 15 and it just became progressively more difficult to do so. 16 There was one -- the president of the board of trustees at the 17 time on Urantia Foundation was very, very difficult to get 18 along with. 19 Q. Is that Mr. Myers? 20 A. Yes. I doubt if our friends at the other table would 21 object to that. I mean, they would probably agree to that too. 22 At one point, three of their five trustees resigned 23 en masse back in 1989 because they couldn't take it either. So 24 then at the same time everybody found it impossible to deal 25 with the guy. His response was to tell The Brotherhood, "You 00398 { 2:52:10pm} 01 can't use the word 'Urantia' any more, and you can't stay here 02 in the building any more, and you aren't going to be the 03 distribution vehicle for The Urantia Book any more." 04 Q. Why did the -- Why did the organization find it more 05 difficult to deal with the books under Mr. Myers' leadership of 06 The Foundation? You indicated, "It became more difficult for 07 us to do our job." 08 A. Well, there were any number of problems but maybe the 09 principal problem had to do with the distribution policy 10 because we were interested in doing many of the same things 11 that actually Urantia Foundation is doing now, which is to sell 12 through wholesalers. If you want wholesalers to carry your -- 13 expect them to carry it, you have to give them a discount that 14 enables them to do it, or else they can't -- they're not going 15 to carry a book just for free. So we wanted the wholesalers -- 16 we thought, to get this book out in commercial -- into book 17 stores, books are sold through -- book stores buy books through 18 chains -- I'm sorry -- through distributors. It's a little 19 less true now when you have these mega stores like Barnes & 20 Noble and Borders. They probably make their own arrangements. 21 At the time it was more like what Walden Books And B. Dalton 22 and the smaller stores. You know, they were chains but the 23 smaller book stores like Bollinger's around here, and they 24 bought through distributors. And so if the books weren't going 25 to be sold through distributors, there was no practical way for 00399 { 2:52:10pm} 01 the book -- to expect the book stores to write to one publisher 02 to get one book out of all the thousands and thousands that 03 they carry. It's not efficient for them and they just wouldn't 04 do it. So that was one of the major things. 05 Another thing had to do with the design of the dust jacket 06 that we thought was horrible and cult looking and, in fact, 07 Urantia Foundation has made it much nicer now. They've really 08 done most of the things that we thought needed to be done since 09 as far as making the book more attractive. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: May I borrow that? 11 MR. HILL: Please. 12 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Can you tell us what you mean by a dust 13 jacket? 14 A. Well, they haven't changed this one. I was referring to 15 this one right here. This is not -- This is not greatly 16 dissimilar from what they did back in 1989. We thought this 17 looked cultish and just not -- anyway, it was our opinion. But 18 the problem is we didn't have any ability to communicate. You 19 know, when we would make suggestions, it would come back -- he 20 said, "Mind your own business," and he actually said, "If you 21 make any more suggestions to us about how to do this, we're 22 going to quit having you as our sales agent." 23 Q. And that occurred? 24 A. Excuse me? 25 Q. And that occurred? 00400 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Well, it didn't occur over that. It occurred when the 02 Brotherhood finally said -- wrote a letter to Urantia 03 Foundation and said, "You've got to do something about this 04 Martin Myers guy because everything is falling apart." 05 Q. And how long -- 06 A. And the response to that was the eviction. 07 Q. How long had that relationship existed up until the time 08 The Brotherhood was evicted? 09 A. Since the foundation of The Brotherhood in 1955. 10 Q. Yesterday, just to put this in context, The Brotherhood 11 was essentially the successor to The Forum? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And The Foundation was the successor to The Contact 14 Commission? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. What was the reaction of The Brotherhood to this division? 17 A. It was very difficult. 18 Q. In what sense? 19 A. Well, there had been a unified movement up to that point 20 and people, you know, then it became an us-against-them, which 21 it has been that way to this day. It's very sad. 22 Q. Back when that occurred, was Mr. Keeler part of The 23 Brotherhood? 24 A. Yes, he was. 25 Q. Was Mr. Siegel part of The Brotherhood? 00401 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Was Mr. Jameson part of The Brotherhood? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And the three of them moved from The Brotherhood over to 05 The Foundation? 06 A. Not at that time. Mr. Keeler joined -- was invited to be 07 a trustee of The Foundation and Mr. Siegel and Mr. Jameson 08 remained members associated with The Brotherhood for another 09 six or seven or eight years. 10 Q. Now, there was mentioned yesterday of a -- what was 11 apparently a violation by The Brotherhood or The Fellowship, I 12 don't remember which organization was in place at the time, 13 about a telephone number that was used which was 14 1-800-Urantia. Can you relate to us what that dispute was 15 about? 16 A. Yes, I can, because I was involved in the settlement 17 negotiations on it. There was an American Book Sellers 18 Association meeting and we had a table out there. 19 Q. Who is "we"? 20 A. The Fellowship. 21 Q. Now, The Brotherhood, after being evicted and no longer 22 able to use the name Urantia became The Fellowship? 23 A. Yes. Mr. Keeler said it quite right, that it's hard to 24 know what you call it these days. It was The Epochal 25 Fellowship at one time, and it became The Fellowship of Urantia 00402 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Book Readers, and now it's The Urantia Book Fellowship. So 02 we've had a hard time figuring out what to call ourselves. 03 Q. Essentially -- 04 A. But it's the same organization. 05 Q. All right. Please continue. 06 A. So we had a Urantia table at the American Book Sellers 07 Convention and a lady named Paula Thompson, who was a member of 08 The Fellowship but also Mo Seigel is the head of an 09 organization -- a nonprofit organization owned by Mo Seigel, 10 who's now the trustee, had some -- there was some flyers on the 11 table and it said something about The Fellowship and then it 12 had the 1- -- maybe it was 888-Urantia, some toll-free number 13 that had the word Urantia in it, to call us there. And a 14 Foundation representative happened to be there and called and 15 about -- it was within 45 minutes there was a complaint about 16 it and it was removed and The Fellowship apologized and said, 17 you know, "Sorry we did that. We didn't realize it was a 18 problem." That ended up that even though it was just on one 19 flyer for 45 minutes on the table, we took it off and we 20 removed it, they filed suit against us in federal court for 21 trademark infringement. 22 Q. Was it resolved? 23 A. It was resolved. The -- 24 Q. How? 25 A. Well, the judge is a man named Harry Leinenweber from 00403 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Chicago and he called everybody into the chambers and he said, 02 "Now, what is this Urantia thing?" And then so we said, "Well, 03 Judge, it's the name of the plaintiff." And we flipped to the 04 first page. He says, "Urantia is the name of your planet." 05 It's in the very first line of the introduction. And then he 06 looked at the other people and said -- 07 MR. HILL: Your Honor, hearsay. 08 THE WITNESS: I was there. 09 THE COURT: I'll let him recite what happened leading 10 up to -- it did result in a resolution of the dispute and I 11 think they can -- he can discuss what actually occurred. 12 Go ahead. 13 MR. HILL: Okay. 14 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Please continue. 15 A. Well, then the judge said, "This is some religious schism, 16 isn't it?" And so -- 17 Q. Go ahead. 18 A. So we were going like this and The Urantia Foundation was 19 going like this (INDICATING), and the judge said -- basically 20 said, "You guys get out of my courtroom. This thing's over." 21 And the suit was dismissed. That's the basic story. He was 22 offended that the suit had been brought. 23 Q. Now, in the course of the dealings with The Foundation on 24 Jesus - A New Revelation, you indicated when you and Mr. Siegel 25 and Mr. Jameson were discussing the first publication, that it 00404 { 2:52:10pm} 01 was in the public domain. Why did you view it to be in the 02 public domain? 03 A. It was in the public domain legally due to a decision in 04 the district court in which the judge declared it in the public 05 domain. 06 Q. And that decision was subsequently reversed? 07 A. Yes, it was. 08 Q. And what was the status of that case when you published 09 Jesus - A New Revelation? 10 A. The reversal had already taken place. 11 Q. And what was your view about publishing it at that point? 12 A. Well, I analyzed the decision as best I could, had my 13 lawyers look at it, and I'm not going to get into that or I 14 don't want to waive the attorney/client privilege on that, but 15 the result was that we believed that it was perfectly legal, 16 even under the appeals court ruling, to publish this book. 17 Q. Now, after you published the book, what was the reaction 18 of The Foundation? 19 A. There were -- They were very unhappy. 20 Q. And, again, what is the date of the publication of the 21 book? 22 A. 1999. Around June, 1999. 23 Q. Did The Foundation correspond with you? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have Defendant's Exhibit 26, 00405 { 2:52:10pm} 01 please. 02 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One second, please. It will take 03 just a minute to warm up the projector, sir. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: Can you see that? Can you blow that 05 up? 06 Judge, can that be admitted? 07 MR. HILL: No objection. 08 THE COURT: Be admitted. 09 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Can you see it? There's a screen behind 10 you, Mr. McMullan. 11 A. I think I can see it better on that screen. 12 Q. Is this a letter you received from The Foundation? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. What was your reaction to the letter? 15 A. It may have been a reaction to a different letter but we 16 sent them a letter saying, "Tell us what you did -- identify 17 the parts of the book in which The Urantia Foundation claims to 18 have had some work or some input and we'll take it out." 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. "We'll take that part out." 21 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you scroll it up, please? 22 A. It was a bit of a facetious request because we had 23 evidence from -- there was evidence on the record that they 24 said they hadn't made any changes at all, they hadn't done 25 anything. So when we said, "Tell us the changes you've made," 00406 { 2:52:10pm} 01 we thought it was an unanswerable question and it kind of made 02 the point of, "What is it you're claiming the copyright on?" 03 Q. All right. Now, did you anticipate this letter? 04 A. You know, not -- well, I anticipated letters. I really 05 didn't anticipate a lawsuit. I anticipated lots of letters 06 like that. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: Scroll the letter up, please. 08 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I direct your attention to the sentence, 09 "We know from Eve's folly that one's own personal plans for 10 improving mankind can miscarry and retard, instead of 11 stimulate, growth." 12 What was your reaction to that statement? 13 A. I really didn't react to it at all because it's the kind 14 of thing that I expected them to say. Did you mean what do I 15 think it meant? 16 Q. Well, what did it mean to you? 17 A. Well, Eve is the wife of Adam and the idea is that Eve 18 goes off and gets everybody in trouble. The analogy they're 19 saying is that I'm operating outside of the authorized way to 20 do things and they are the people that are legitimately in 21 charge of what happens with this book and the plan, and so I 22 just don't accept the premise. 23 Q. In that analogy, did you consider yourself to be Eve? 24 A. They considered myself to be Eve. 25 Q. No. Did you consider -- 00407 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. No, heavens no. 02 Q. Okay. Thank you. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the witness? 04 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me show you exhibit 92 and ask you 05 if you can identify that. 06 A. Yes, I can. 07 Q. What is that? 08 A. This is the response letter that we wrote on November 5th, 09 1999 to Urantia Foundation. 10 Q. And its date? 11 A. November 5th, 1999. 12 Q. And addressed to The Urantia Foundation? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Written by your lawyers? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Shown -- Michael Foundation is shown as a copied 17 recipient? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admittance, Your 20 Honor. 21 MR. HILL: No objection. 22 THE COURT: Be admitted. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have exhibit 92, please? 24 Can you enhance that somehow? It's not a very good copy. 25 Can you see that? 00408 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Is it possible to darken that up a little? 02 Is that easier to read that way? 03 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) This letter is signed by whom? 04 A. By that man right there, Ross Plourde. 05 Q. This man? Okay. 06 Briefly, what does the letter ask of The Foundation? 07 A. Well, it's over on page 3. 08 Q. All right. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: May we have page 3, please? 10 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) And what portion of the exhibit are you 11 referring to? 12 A. The paragraph beginning, "In printing Jesus - A New 13 Revelation." 14 Q. So what is the response to my question? Essentially, what 15 did you ask of The Foundation? 16 A. Well, there's a rule that says when you summarize 17 something, it ends up taking twice as long as if you just read 18 it. 19 Q. Only if the lawyer does it. 20 A. Well, we said that Urantia Foundation had said in court 21 that there wasn't any human input and, so, if they haven't 22 claimed a copyright, they have to have done something 23 themselves. Somebody connected with them has to have done 24 something. And if they've said there isn't anything that 25 they've done, then there's no problem with copying it because 00409 { 2:52:10pm} 01 that part of it would not be subject to a copyright. 02 So, especially with the part IV, as Mr. Keeler testified 03 before, it came at one time, and so it's a single -- in the 04 context of that Ninth Circuit court, we viewed it as a single 05 revelation because it came as a unit. So, if they're saying 06 they did something to it, tell us -- we said, "Tell us what you 07 did and we'll take that part out." 08 Q. Did you get a response or did Mr. Plourde get a response? 09 A. No. 10 Q. That was the end of it? 11 A. Well, there was nothing they could say really, but they 12 didn't respond one way or the other. We posed an unanswerable 13 question to them, I think. 14 Q. Why was it unanswerable? 15 A. Because their own admission is that they didn't do 16 anything in here, neither Urantia Foundation nor its 17 predecessors did anything as far as the copyrightable text in 18 The Urantia Book. And that's what -- our understanding is that 19 it's the text itself is what you copyright and not who gave 20 input here or there, but it's who actually did the text 21 itself. So, since they didn't do it, there's nothing to 22 copyright. 23 Q. All right. 24 A. That was my thinking and that was the intent of that 25 letter. 00410 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Thank you. 02 What happened next in this dispute regarding the 03 publication of Jesus - A New Revelation? 04 A. The next big event that happened was Urantia Foundation 05 filed suit against Michael Foundation in Arizona. 06 Q. And what was the nature of the lawsuit? 07 A. Copyright infringement. 08 Q. Did they ask for damages? 09 A. Yes, they did. 10 Q. What did they ask for? 11 A. They asked for damages of $100,000 per copy that were 12 sold. 13 Q. Of -- sold -- 14 A. Of this book. 15 Q. And how many were sold? 16 A. 2,600. 17 Q. And that would amount to how much money? 18 A. It's about $260 million. 19 Q. Does Michael Foundation have that kind of money? 20 A. Not in its checkbook. No, it doesn't have that kind of 21 money. 22 Q. The lawsuit was dismissed? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what happened next in the dispute? 25 A. Well, it was clear to me that there was going to be a 00411 { 2:52:10pm} 01 lawsuit somewhere, and so I thought if we're going to fight, it 02 would be much more convenient for me to do it here rather than 03 to have them to shop for some forum somewhere else that had no 04 connection with anything, and so we filed the suit here. 05 Q. This lawsuit was filed on behalf of Michael Foundation? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Against Urantia Foundation? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Asking for what? 10 A. Asking that the copyright in The Urantia Book be declared 11 invalid. 12 Q. Now, there was a -- you mentioned earlier that -- strike 13 that. Let me address it this way. 14 At the time that Michael Foundation filed its lawsuit 15 against Urantia Foundation in this courthouse, what was your 16 personal view of the origin of The Urantia Book? 17 A. It was very similar to the view expressed by Mr. Keeler, 18 in that these papers just appeared places, just appeared out of 19 thin air. 20 Q. And there was -- 21 A. Or at least a lot of them did. Excuse me. 22 Q. There was testimony yesterday and there were letters 23 written to those inquiring essentially that, "We're not going 24 to tell you what the origin is but if you read the book you 25 will find out what you should know about the origin." What 00412 { 2:52:10pm} 01 does the book say about the origin? 02 A. The book talks about a human subject through whom 03 transmissions were given, and it says that he was unconcerned, 04 and that's about it. There's not really anything -- it talks 05 about the thought adjuster -- that's another thing we had in 06 the index here -- the thought adjuster, which is the indwelling 07 spirit of God in a person, having been somehow involved, and 08 that's about it. You could say it in a minute, all that's in 09 The Urantia Book itself. 10 Q. Is it in one particular place or do you have to go to 11 different places in the book to gather that information? 12 A. It's in a couple of different places. 13 Q. And did you ever change your view -- 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. -- in that regard? 16 And what is your view now? 17 A. It's very clear that this book was written, start to 18 finish, by a patient of Dr. Sadler. 19 Q. And what gave rise to the change in your view? 20 A. Discovery in this case. 21 Q. And what is it that supports your view that you now have 22 about the origin of this book? 23 A. Well, the thing that really made me start to realize that 24 I was wrong was we had a deposition in January of a man who 25 lived in Honolulu whom I had personally relied on, and his 00413 { 2:52:10pm} 01 story was that part IV was found typed on a desk in some office 02 and they just found it. And that was one of the things that I 03 was relying on in terms of -- I had heard that story for years 04 -- and that was one of the things I was relying on as far as 05 the legal basis for this part of The Urantia Book to not be 06 subject to copyright. 07 And, so, at that deposition, Mr. Hill was kind enough to 08 introduce something I had never seen before. It was an 09 affidavit by one of The Urantia Foundation trustees, Edith 10 Cook, and what it said is that the entire Urantia Book first 11 occurred in the handwriting of -- in the handwriting of an 12 individual. I'm not sure if she said the patient or not. I 13 think she didn't say that. 14 Q. And that was new information to you? 15 A. I had never seen that before. 16 Q. And how did that fit into your thought process that the 17 book had a different origin? 18 A. Well, first of all, I had to -- I had to really think 19 about this handwriting thing. I know to the jury this may 20 sound like it's just weird but it certainly mattered to me, and 21 not just because of this lawsuit, but because this is the 22 religion I've been following all these years. 23 About that time, we got some -- somewhere around in there, 24 we got some copies of The Urantia Foundation pleadings in the 25 Robert Burton case and they said in there, The Urantia 00414 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Foundation said the patient is the author, not just the writer 02 but is the author. 03 At the time this was going on, Emma Christensen, who 04 should have been in a position to know, was cited as being the 05 source of the information. One of the things that Mr. Burton 06 said is, "What do you base your opinion on?" and they said, "On 07 Emma Christensen." So, you have Emma Christensen saying that 08 it's -- 09 Q. Tell us again. It's been a couple of days since we found 10 out who she was. Who is she? 11 A. Emma Christensen was Mr. Sadler's foster daughter and she 12 was one of the original members of The Contact Commission. 13 She's the one that typed the handwritten pages onto -- into 14 typed form before they were destroyed. 15 Q. All right. I'm sorry for interrupting. Please continue. 16 A. Well, so you have Edith Cook who knew Dr. Sadler and who 17 had been around since the late '20s, who wasn't a member of The 18 Contact Commission but she was one of the original members of 19 The Urantia Foundation, saying that it was all in the patient's 20 handwriting. Then you have these responses in Burton that say, 21 "It's all in the patient's handwriting. For copyright 22 purposes, he is the author." 23 So you have that on the one hand and then the other thing 24 is the information about, okay, so it's established that he 25 wrote it but then the question is: Was he the author? And the 00415 { 2:52:10pm} 01 distinction would be that you could say a fax machine is not 02 the author of what's printed out over it. You know, it's just 03 a machine and it just does whatever it's told to do. 04 And, so, that, in terms of writing, that's called 05 automatic writing. That's my understanding of it, anyway. And 06 Dr. Sadler wrote in one of his papers, and in fact it was up on 07 the screen yesterday, you know, the paper Urantia Foundation 08 was quoting. It said, "This is not the product of automatic 09 writing," and then it said a lot of other things, that it's not 10 any psychic deal, it's not automatic speaking, it's not this or 11 that. And, so, if -- they also said they never saw the patient 12 write it. And, so, if you take those three things together, he 13 did write it. He wrote every single word. No dispute on that 14 whatsoever. No changes, no nothing, no rearrangement. It's 15 all -- you know, it's this guy's writing. 16 Secondly, nobody saw him write it, so they weren't there 17 to see -- that also means they didn't see him not write it, in 18 my opinion. 19 And, third, it's not automatic writing. In other words, 20 if it's not automatic writing, that means that his mind was at 21 least to some extent engaged in the process. It came out of 22 this man's mind. And, so, the distinction -- this is sort of a 23 theological distinction -- it's between inspiration and pure 24 revelation. And, so, from what these people said who were 25 really the only ones on the scene to have a legitimate opinion 00416 { 2:52:10pm} 01 on it, what it is, to my shock, is that it's a book and it was 02 written like -- it's written like books are written. The man 03 had some amazing, in my opinion, some amazing inspiration but 04 it was -- but the author was this patient and there's no 05 escaping that, in my opinion. 06 Q. Is that a conflict with respect to your beliefs that have 07 come from The Urantia Book? 08 A. Not at all, any more than someone who believes that the 09 Bible is the word of God doesn't have a problem believing that 10 Matthew wrote the gospel according to Matthew. You know, it 11 was Matthew's experience in writing it. It reflected -- I 12 mean, if it were today, I think Matthew could have claimed a 13 copyright and nobody would have said anything about it. So he 14 was inspired -- Matthew was inspired and the patient was 15 inspired. It's inspiration but there's the person -- it's not 16 all this spooky stuff. It's just that somebody was really 17 inspired and they wrote a book, and that doesn't bother me at 18 all. 19 Q. Does that diminish your view of the teachings of that 20 book? 21 A. Not one iota. 22 Q. Well, if it's not -- I think we've heard that it was the 23 product of celestial beings that had planned this book from the 24 middle ages and now you find out it's a man. That hasn't 25 affected your faith? 00417 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Well, the part about it being planned from the middle 02 ages, I think, is ridiculous, personally. I don't -- I don't 03 buy into these myths any more. I mean, I think there was the 04 whole myth structure that was built around it. There's no 05 evidence for that, none whatsoever. And, so, I think this is 06 just part of a story that's been developed and I think it's 07 better to go with a simpler explanation. 08 Q. Well, has that in any way affected your faith in what's 09 written? 10 A. No, not at all. Well, my faith is in God. See, that's 11 the first thing. All this is is specks of carbon on paper. 12 And what this book teaches and what Christianity teaches is you 13 put your faith in God. That's where your faith belongs. So, 14 all these other things are really on a secondary level. So, if 15 something builds my faith in God, then I think it's good. And 16 if it doesn't, I better quit messing with it. 17 Q. Do the teachings of that book still build your faith in 18 God? 19 A. Very much. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: Do we have time for a recess, Judge? 21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll 22 be recessed for 15 minutes. Be back in the jury box at the end 23 of that time, and I'll remind you of my previous admonition not 24 to discuss this case. 25 Everyone please stand. 00418 { 2:52:10pm} 01 (THE JURY WAS EXCUSED FROM THE COURTROOM, AFTER WHICH THE 02 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT:) 03 THE COURT: Court is in recess. 04 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 05 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 06 THE JURY:) 07 THE COURT: Be seated, please. 08 Mr. Abowitz, go ahead. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 10 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Mr. McMullan, we talked the other day 11 about the painting on the cover of Jesus - A New Revelation and 12 you indicated that that is hanging in a museum in Scotland? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you just decide to put that on the cover of your book 15 without permission of those people? 16 A. Oh, no, no. Huh-uh. No, we first decided we wanted this 17 on the cover and then the issue was to find out who owned it, 18 who had the right to it, and we figured out eventually that it 19 was this museum and we wrote them and paid a fee for the right 20 to use this on the cover. 21 Q. Did you deal with anybody else in conjunction with the 22 publication of that book in which you paid for a right to use 23 something that they had? 24 A. Well, I didn't charge Michael Foundation for the use of 25 the index, so there was no money payment involved there. 00419 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Now, did you -- Have you, over the years, where you 02 thought there was a valid interest in something, asked for 03 permission to use it? 04 A. I believe so. 05 Q. Now, there are other issues in this lawsuit concerning the 06 trademark. There's been testimony that you and Michael 07 Foundation have registered domain names that involve words that 08 might cause confusion with The Urantia Foundation and The 09 Urantia Book. Would you tell us what the domain names in 10 question are. 11 A. One of them is -- it's possible I'm going to mix this up a 12 little but I think it's correct -- TheUrantiaBook.com, 13 UrantiaBook.org, and Urantian.org. 14 Q. And when were they registered, all at one time or over a 15 period of time? 16 A. No, they were all registered pretty close to the same 17 time, I think. I don't remember exactly. 18 Q. I'm sorry? 19 A. I don't remember exactly but they were pretty close to the 20 same time. 21 Q. And why were they registered? 22 A. They were registered because at the time it was perfectly 23 clear that if someone is going to have a Urantia ministry, at 24 some point you're going to need to have an Internet presence. 25 Q. And which one of the sites was going to be the Internet 00420 { 2:52:10pm} 01 site for the presence of a church? 02 A. I didn't really know. It's not uncommon to have multiple 03 sites. Probably one would have been for the church and another 04 one would have been for the book sales, and the third, I don't 05 know. But there's just a lot of things going on. We would 06 have certainly had a good use for it. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have exhibit 40, please? 08 Your Honor, we talked about this yesterday and it was 09 never admitted. May we have it admitted at this point? It is 10 the policy regarding the use of "Urantia" and "Urantian." 11 MR. HILL: No objection. 12 THE COURT: Be admitted. 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Mr. Keeler talked with us yesterday 14 about The Foundation consenting as safe harbors for fair use. 15 How do those domain names fit within the context of safe harbor 16 for fair use, in your view? 17 A. They're entirely within the boundaries of that permission. 18 Q. Tell us why. 19 A. Well, when I say the word, "Urantia," the only thing -- 20 the only thing I'm going to mean is the planet earth, or in the 21 case of these web domains, it says, "The Urantia Book." So, I 22 mean, there's nothing that I'm referring to but the book here. 23 So, on the two that say, "The Urantia Book," it's not -- I'm 24 simply referring to the book that I follow, which is The 25 Urantia Book. 00421 { 2:52:10pm} 01 I don't think I answered that properly. Would you mind -- 02 I got off a little bit. Could you bring me back to what your 03 question was? 04 Q. My question is: How does what you did, if it does, fit 05 within safe harbor for fair use? 06 A. Well, in the case of Urantian.org, I was referring to the 07 readers of The Urantia Book. That's under number 1. 08 Q. Down here, "You may use Urantian or Urantians merely to 09 refer to the readers of The Urantia Book or as inhabitants of 10 planet earth"? 11 A. Right. Right. And then with respect to, "The Urantia 12 Book," The Urantia Book means the earth book, so that's really 13 what it really means to Urantia Book readers. And, so, when I 14 say, "The Urantia Book," it's a reference to the planet earth. 15 It couldn't possibly be anything else. The last thing I would 16 want to do is refer to Urantia Foundation, with all due 17 respect. 18 Q. There was an issue raised by Mr. Keeler about confusion, 19 and the view of The Foundation is they don't want to be 20 confused -- or they don't want any confusion in the minds of 21 people that might access the Internet when they see 22 UrantiaBook.com, that it's really Michael Foundation or however 23 you call them as opposed to The Urantia Foundation. What's 24 your response to the confusion issue? 25 A. I don't believe it to be a sincere comment, in the first 00422 { 2:52:10pm} 01 place. 02 Q. Well, regardless of whether it was or it wasn't, what's 03 your view of -- what's your response to the confusion issue? 04 Did you intend for it to be confused with The Urantia 05 Foundation? 06 A. Absolutely not. 07 Q. Did you want it to be confused with The Urantia 08 Foundation? 09 A. Absolutely not. 10 Q. Do you want people to align the Michael Foundation with 11 The Urantia Foundation? 12 A. Hardly. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Well, you know, they have a different approach toward 15 things. Theirs is that we're going to control everything, and 16 I just don't buy into that philosophy. So I think the people 17 involved are very nice but we just have a difference in the way 18 that we look at the way this message needs to go into the world 19 and I think it's good when there are differences. I mean, it's 20 good as long as one person doesn't try to clobber the people 21 that feel differently. 22 Q. Did you register those domain names out of spite? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you used them? 25 A. Not one of them has ever been used. 00423 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. There was discussion here yesterday about commercial use, 02 commercial competition, goods and service, competing for the 03 goods and services of The Urantia Foundation. Are you doing 04 that? 05 A. No. Well, they've never been used, in the first place. I 06 would never have done that even if they had been used. 07 Q. The other allegation and accusation I think that comes 08 from Mr. Keeler's testimony yesterday is that you've got them 09 and he can't get them. What's your response to that? 10 A. Well, -- 11 THE COURT: Wait just a moment. Did you have an 12 objection? 13 MR. HILL: Can I approach, Your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 16 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 17 MR. ABOWITZ: They're worried I'm going to get into 18 something. I'll withdraw the question. 19 THE COURT: Okay. You'll withdraw the question? 20 MR. ABOWITZ: Yeah. I don't want to go there. 21 MR. HILL: I was just making sure. 22 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 23 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 24 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm going to withdraw the question. 25 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Are there -- Have you done a survey of 00424 { 2:52:10pm} 01 the Internet to determine if there are other persons or groups 02 or entities that use "Urantian" or "Urantia" or "Urantia Book" 03 or some combination of those? 04 A. Yes, I have. 05 Q. How many are there? 06 A. There appear to be in excess of 50 different domains that 07 have the word "Urantia" in them that don't appear to have any 08 connection with Urantia Foundation. 09 Q. And -- 10 A. There are more than 900 different Urantia web sites. 11 Maybe they don't have the word "Urantia" or "Urantian" in the 12 title to it but there's an order of magnitude, more of 13 independent web sites that have "Urantia Book" and "Urantia" 14 all over them. As far as the names go, I counted in excess of 15 50. 16 Q. Is it your view that under the fair -- the safe harbor of 17 the fair use doctrine and policy of The Foundation, that you're 18 as entitled to those -- you and Michael are as entitled to 19 those domain names as The Foundation? 20 A. I don't see anything in it that says that that wouldn't be 21 perfectly suitable. I don't see anything in there that says 22 whether it's commercial or noncommercial. It just says anyone 23 can do it. Mr. Keeler interpreted it to be commercial but I 24 don't see the word "commercial" in there. 25 Q. Well, I think he finally said that. But you haven't made 00425 { 2:52:10pm} 01 any commercial use of those domain names? 02 A. I've made no use whatsoever of them. 03 Q. So you've not profited by them? 04 A. No. 05 Q. You've not enhanced the sales of Jesus - A New Revelation 06 by virtue of those domain sites? 07 A. No. 08 Q. Have you interfered in any way with the business, 09 commercial or religious, of The Urantia Foundation? 10 A. Not in the least. 11 Q. Now, we saw yesterday Mr. Keeler said that he didn't 12 believe that there was a generic name, "Urantian," at least he 13 didn't believe there was until -- there wasn't since he stopped 14 using it in the early days, he said. Describe for us how that 15 term is used. 16 A. It's common as dirt among people that are Urantia Book 17 readers. They call each other Urantians. 18 Q. And does it have other uses, other than to refer to the 19 earth and those things that are in the book? 20 A. Well, typically, among Urantia Book readers, followers, 21 the word is not used so much in terms of inhabitants of the 22 earth; it just means people that are readers of The Urantia 23 Book is what it means. 24 Q. Or people who are followers? 25 A. Yeah. 00426 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Or in terms of Mr. Keeler's letter, potential tithers? 02 A. Well, I don't think they think of it in the money terms. 03 It's just -- 04 Q. No, no, and I wasn't being facetious but that's how he 05 referred to Urantians, the same as Mormons? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Same as Seventh Day Adventists? 08 A. He didn't -- I don't think he meant in that that those 09 that are willing to tithe are the ones called Mormons -- excuse 10 me -- the ones called Urantians, but those that read the book 11 are just simply known among -- we're known among ourselves as 12 Urantians. 13 Q. And that's similar to those that the Book of Mormon are 14 Mormons? 15 A. I'm not a Mormon but I think that would probably -- as far 16 as I know, that's the case. 17 Q. What is your view of the mark or the alleged infringement 18 of a mark with respect to The Urantia Book, either dot-org or 19 dot-com or whatever it is? 20 A. In the course of being on the board of The Urantia Book 21 Fellowship, we felt like we had to be pretty careful because 22 these guys took us to court over a bunch of nothing on this 23 flyer. And, so, in the course of it, we discovered that it's 24 the policy of the copyright office, or the trademark office, 25 one, anyway the titles of books or the U.S. Government policy 00427 { 2:52:10pm} 01 is that titles of books are not subject to being trademarked 02 because you don't have any way to refer to the thing. 03 An example is here on this -- this is an index to The 04 Urantia Book. It's hard to think how I would say what this 05 book is without saying The Urantia Book. You know, it would be 06 the index to that book whose name may not be spoken or 07 something. You know, you have to be -- there has to be some 08 way to refer to the thing which -- this is not referring to 09 Urantia Foundation. It's referring to this book right here. 10 And, so, our view -- the view of The Urantia Book Fellowship, 11 which has been using this word now for almost -- well, over 10 12 years, and with, you know -- I mean, we're still using it and, 13 so, I don't really see what the difference is between them 14 using it and it being on this book and other organizations, The 15 Center for Urantia Book Synergy, and that and it being on a web 16 domain. 17 Q. Well, -- 18 A. So, I never thought that there was any problem whatsoever 19 in any legal problem in registering a web domain. 20 Q. One of the claims in the lawsuit -- the counterclaims in 21 the lawsuit by Urantia Foundation is that there has been a 22 violation of the anti-cybersquatting act. Are you familiar 23 with that? 24 A. I am now. 25 Q. And what is your understanding of what the claim is? 00428 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Well, first of all, the act wasn't in existence when these 02 things were -- when these names were filed, so it wasn't a 03 consideration at all. The law was passed after, you know -- I 04 mean, I didn't know there was an anti-cybersquatting act when I 05 registered those names in the first place. 06 My understanding of why it exists is to keep people from 07 registering Generalmotors.com and then taking that name and 08 offering to sell it to General Motors to say, "Look, we'll sell 09 you your name if you'll give us some big bucks." That sort of 10 thing. 11 Q. Was that your intention when you registered these? 12 A. Heavens no. 13 Q. Now, hypothetically, I understand you're not using them, 14 but if someone was interested in The Urantia Book and went to 15 the web site of Urantia Book and came and it led somebody to 16 the Michael Foundation and led somebody to Jesus - A New 17 Revelation, what's your view about whether one would be 18 confused? 19 A. Well, as I said, there's nothing there currently to be 20 confused about because it doesn't even exist. It's simply a 21 registration. But I would never -- I've never done anything 22 knowingly to confuse anything I've ever done with The Urantia 23 Foundation because it wouldn't be fair to them, and I 24 personally wouldn't want the association. And, so, you know, 25 we're kind of agreed on that. So, it's inconceivable that I 00429 { 2:52:10pm} 01 would not make it clear that this is, you know, something 02 that's not associated with Urantia Foundation. 03 Q. In your mind, confusion is not an issue? 04 A. Well, it can't be an issue until something exists. It's 05 not even there. So, it's all kind of hypothetical as to what 06 confusion might in the future be. I'm telling you what my 07 attitude toward it is, but there's nothing to be confused 08 about. 09 Q. When the lawsuit was filed in Arizona, did it include 10 trademark claims? 11 A. No. 12 Q. The trademark claims were made here in response to the 13 lawsuit filed by Michael Foundation? 14 A. Correct. That was the first I heard about it. 15 Q. Now, what is it that Harry McMullan and Michael Foundation 16 would like this jury and court to do? What is the relief that 17 you're seeking? Do you want money? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What do you want? 20 A. I want to be able to use those words in the way that they 21 said I could use them, and I am absolutely content to take 22 their exact words on that sheet of paper and live with that. 23 Q. You want to be able to deal within this policy with 24 respect to safe harbors for fair use and use these names? 25 A. That's all I want. 00430 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. What about the copyright? 02 A. I want the copyright in the public domain. 03 Q. And that -- 04 A. I think it is in the public domain and I'm hoping the jury 05 will agree that it's in the public domain. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: That's all I have, Your Honor. 07 THE COURT: Cross-examine? 08 MR. HILL: If I could have a moment, Your Honor. 09 THE COURT: Sure. 10 MR. HILL: I'm just buried in paper. 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. HILL: 13 Q. Mr. McMullan, my understanding of the cover on Jesus - A 14 New Revelation is that it's a Dali painting; correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Mr. Dali painted it and he's an individual; correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. I've heard, and you may have heard as well, that Dali 19 claims that he was -- that he was painting that painting of 20 Jesus from devine inspiration. Did you ever hear that? 21 A. Yes, I have. 22 Q. And, nevertheless, you paid royalties to use the right to 23 the Dali cover art on Jesus - A New Revelation; is that 24 correct? 25 A. Yes, I did. 00431 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And you didn't pay it to Dali or his estate or his heirs, 02 did you? 03 A. No. 04 Q. You paid it to an organization that owned the rights; 05 true? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. In discussing the cybersquatting claims just a moment ago, 08 just so we're clear, you do recall your previous testimony in 09 this case where you stated that if and when you prevail 10 regarding the cybersquatting claims, you do intend to operate 11 web sites on those domains. Do you recall that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that's still true? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And your testimony is that you don't believe that there 16 would be any confusion from that occurring with respect to the 17 Internet? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Okay. What about diversion? Any potential for diversion 20 that you see in that? Could possibly Michael Foundation or 21 yourself personally benefit from having the additional traffic 22 on your web site that possibly started off looking for The 23 Urantia Foundation or the publisher of The Urantia Book? 24 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm going to object to the form, Judge 25 THE COURT: Restate your question. It's a compound 00432 { 2:52:10pm} 01 question, I think. 02 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Did you consider diversion as a possible 03 issue regarding these domain name registrations? 04 A. No, I didn't. 05 Q. So, in your mind, there was not a realistic possibility of 06 consumer confusion nor was there a realistic possibility that a 07 consumer might be diverted to your web site as opposed to 08 Urantia Foundation's? 09 A. I think I said I didn't consider the issue. 10 Q. You know Urantia Foundation's web site is WWW.Urantia.org; 11 true? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. And if you were to operate a web site on WWW.Urantian.org, 14 you'd be one misstroke on the keyboard away from possibly 15 benefiting from those who were trying to key in Urantia 16 Foundation's web site. That doesn't concern you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. There's been some previous testimony in this case 19 comparing Internet domain names to telephone numbers. Do you 20 agree with that analogy? 21 A. It's hard for me to give a yes or no answer to that. 22 Q. Okay. Well, you certainly know what a mnemonic telephone 23 number is; right? 1-800-Urantia, for example. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. 1-800-American for American Airlines reservations? 00433 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Yes, I do. 02 Q. Okay. And, of course, you were familiar, from your 03 previous experience in the court case in Chicago that you 04 referred to, with the fact that Urantia Foundation took the 05 position, at least with regard to mnemonic telephone numbers, 06 that they were trademark infringing; correct? 07 A. Correct. 08 Q. Yes. And the policy that Mr. Abowitz was showing you that 09 you were talking about wanting to benefit from, was that policy 10 actually in effect at the time that you registered these 11 domains? 12 A. No. 13 Q. It was not. It was passed after that; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. But you had previous experience with Urantia Foundation 16 that predated your registration of the domain names wherein you 17 knew that Urantia Foundation considered mnemonic telephone 18 numbers to be trademark infringing; correct? 19 A. But the judge didn't. 20 MR. HILL: Judge, may I approach the witness? 21 Q. (BY MR. HILL) This is a certified copy of Judge 22 Leinenweber's order and judgment in the case that we're 23 referring to. Do you recognize it? 24 A. I've never seen it before. 25 Q. So you've never seen the final order in the case that 00434 { 2:52:10pm} 01 you're claiming that the judge threw it out of court? 02 A. I was present at the meeting. I was not -- I don't 03 believe I've ever seen the final order. 04 Q. Were you aware that Judge Leinenweber's final order orders 05 The Fellowship to refrain from the use of a 1-800-Urantia 06 telephone number, that that was, in fact, the final disposition 07 of that litigation? 08 A. We had refrained already, sir. 09 Q. But the judge ordered you to refrain, true, as The 10 Fellowship? 11 A. True. 12 Q. You are -- You're an executive in private business 13 presently; correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And you run your own -- you run your own show, for all 16 intents and purposes; right? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Well, how big of a -- how many employees does Alliance 19 Steel have? 20 A. About 275. 21 Q. And you're the chairman; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That puts you at the top of that corporate pyramid; 24 correct? 25 A. Yes. But it's a team. 00435 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. I have no doubt that you put your faith in those who carry 02 out the business on a day-to-day operational level, but what 03 I'm referring to is you have the final say? 04 A. Yes, I do. 05 Q. Don't you? 06 And you also are at least a majority owner of Alliance 07 Steel; is that not correct? 08 A. Yes, I am. 09 Q. Which means that ultimately you control -- you can control 10 any aspect of that business if you want? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you also operate McMullan companies; isn't that 13 correct? 14 A. That's a d/b/a, but, yes. 15 Q. Okay. I just saw it as the company that you listed having 16 possession of the Michael Foundation tax returns. Is it a 17 company or is it not really a company? 18 A. It's not really a company. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. It's a d/b/a. 21 Q. Okay. A d/b/a for -- 22 A. For general business interests that are not associated 23 with Alliance Steel. 24 Q. Is it actually incorporated or is it just a d/b/a for 25 Harry McMullan? 00436 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. It's just a d/b/a. 02 Q. Okay. All right. And you're the treasurer of The 03 Fellowship, an organization that we've heard of? 04 A. Yes, I am. 05 Q. And you're the founder of Asoka Foundation? 06 A. Yes, I am. 07 Q. And you're also the founder of Michael Foundation? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And are there any other organizations that you control 10 other than the ones that I've just mentioned? 11 A. I'm the trustee of my father's estate. 12 Q. Okay. Anything else? 13 A. I am the president of a company that is going to be 14 producing Aloe Vera products. 15 Q. And you're the president of that company as well? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you have an ownership interest? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, I want to track a little bit of your previous 20 testimony to the jury. 21 You mentioned -- you started off with your testimony 22 yesterday, as I recall, by mentioning your involvement with a 23 radio broadcast in northern California. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you recall that testimony? 00437 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I do. 02 Q. That radio broadcast is affiliated with the same Family of 03 God Foundation that Mr. Keeler testified about during his 04 examination. Do you recall that? 05 A. Yes, I do. 06 Q. And that is correct, isn't it? 07 A. Yes, it is. 08 Q. You were both affiliated with that foundation? 09 A. I'm not sure he was affiliated at the time. I 10 disaffiliated in early 1973 and I'm not sure at that time 11 whether Mr. Keeler was affiliated. He was later. 12 Q. Okay. You bought -- You mentioned that you've purchased 13 4- to 5,000 Urantia Books; is that true? 14 A. Well, the way the question was phrased was that how many 15 have I been responsible for. I understood it that way. So, 16 there's this organization called Asoka that we were referring 17 to and the vast bulk of those were purchased and resold to 18 other people through Asoka Foundation. 19 Q. That's the clarification I was looking for. Thank you. 20 Can you buy The Urantia Book today? Is it publicly 21 available? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. Any difficulty in getting hold of copies of The Urantia 24 Book presently? 25 A. None that I know of, depending on what version. You can 00438 { 2:52:10pm} 01 get all The Foundation books you want, as far as I know. 02 Q. Okay. And is there anything presently preventing you from 03 purchasing Urantia Books and giving them away, if you so 04 desire? 05 A. Not that I know of. 06 Q. Is there anything preventing you from logging on to 07 WWW.Amazon.com and buying Urantia Books and then turning around 08 and trying to resell them if that's what you want to do? 09 A. Well, there would be a price situation there. The reason 10 these books were bought through Asoka is people wanted to get 11 them cheaper. I resold them at cost. And, so, the point was 12 they would get them cheaper than they could if they were buying 13 through a book store and they were giving them away. So, I 14 don't think you -- if you buy through Amazon, I presume you'd 15 pay retail. But you'd pay whatever Amazon's price is. 16 Q. You mentioned that you attend conferences about 17 The Urantia Book all over the country but you've never attended 18 a conference that's been sponsored by Urantia Foundation; is 19 that true? 20 A. To the best of my recollection, that's true. 21 Q. That's not necessarily indicative of how every executive 22 in The Fellowship participates in conferences; true? 23 A. Correct. Other members of The Fellowship board have 24 attended Urantia Foundation conferences. 25 Q. Persons such as Marvin Galron (sp) -- 00439 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. -- who's on the executive committee with yourself? 03 A. That's correct. 04 Q. There was some testimony yesterday about the Index to The 05 Urantia Book that you published. Do you have a copy of that 06 with you? 07 A. Yes, I do. 08 Q. When you published that, did Urantia Foundation threaten 09 you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Didn't file a lawsuit over your index? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Is that also true of When Things Go Wrong, the 14 pamphlet that you testified about this morning? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 Q. Is that also true of 21 Steps To A Spiritual Awakening? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 Q. In fact, with regard to 21 Steps To A Spiritual Awakening, 19 you actually asked Urantia Foundation for copyright permission 20 to go forward with that, the publication of that project; is 21 that correct? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. Yes, you did. 24 And did I understand your testimony correctly that you 25 also believe that you may have asked Urantia Foundation for 00440 { 2:52:10pm} 01 copyright permission with respect to When Things Go Wrong? 02 A. It's kind of unclear. I think when I was going through 03 the document inspection at Urantia Foundation, I saw something 04 that indicated from a member of The Urantia Foundation staff 05 that I had written or made an inquiry of some kind. And, so, 06 that's the basis on which I say that. I was unable to find any 07 records of my records that made that clear. 08 Q. Okay. Now, I want to take you back to the time when 09 Urantia Foundation and Urantia Brotherhood split, and you were, 10 of course, an executive with Urantia Brotherhood. 11 Once Urantia Brotherhood renamed itself, let's just say, 12 for sake of simplicity, to The Fellowship for The Fifth Epochal 13 Revelation, I believe was your testimony. 14 A. Fellowship of Urantia Book Readers. 15 Q. That's what it initially was? 16 A. No, I think -- well, it had a couple of names. Do you 17 want me to go on? 18 Q. Can we just call it The Fellowship? 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. Let's just call it The Fellowship. 21 Once The Fellowship moved out of 533 Diversey Parkway in 22 Chicago, do you recall in the early 1990s working on a project 23 with Gard Jameson to produce a Folio Views computerized version 24 of The Urantia Book? 25 A. I did. 00441 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And did there come a time in connection with that project 02 in either 1990 or 1991 when Mr. Jameson assigned his rights and 03 interests in the outcome of that project to Urantia Foundation? 04 A. I don't know. 05 Q. Okay. Do you recall being asked by Urantia Foundation to 06 assign your rights in such a project to Urantia Foundation? 07 A. No, I don't. 08 Q. Okay. You testified in some detail about the origin of 09 the idea to produce a book that replicated the entirety or at 10 least the substantial entirety of the contents of part IV of 11 The Urantia Book, and that goes all the way back to 1995; 12 correct? 13 A. That's correct. I think that's -- I may be off a little 14 on the year but I think that's correct. 15 Q. Now, you also recall, of course, that in the early 1990s 16 there was a lawsuit brought by Urantia Foundation against a 17 woman named Kristen Maaherra regarding a certain Folio Views 18 index and copy of The Urantia Book that was being distributed 19 on computer diskettes? 20 A. I wasn't aware she was using the folio program but in all 21 other respects I agree with your answer. 22 Q. Okay. Okay. Well, let's just say for the sake of 23 simplicity that she copied The Urantia Book onto a computer 24 diskette and was distributing it around anonymously. 25 A. That's my understanding. 00442 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Yes. And that litigation began in the early 1990s as 02 well; correct? 03 A. Correct. 04 Q. And at some point during that litigation in early 1995, do 05 you recall a time when the trial court judge in that case, 06 Judge Urbom, entered an order saying that the copyright in The 07 Urantia Book was in the public domain? 08 A. Yes, I do. 09 Q. Yes. And, so, in 1995 you had discussions, apparently, 10 according to your earlier testimony, with Mr. Siegel and 11 Mr. Jameson, who are now Urantia Foundation trustees, about 12 doing a project to print part IV of The Urantia Book; is that 13 accurate? 14 A. Yes, it is. 15 Q. Yes. And The Urantia Book at that time, because of Judge 16 Urbom's order, was completely in the public domain; true? 17 A. True. 18 Q. It was fair game; anybody could do anything they wanted to 19 to it; right? 20 A. That's true. 21 Q. But then there came another time, approximately two years 22 later, and I'm sure you recall this, where the United States 23 Court of Appeals restored the copyright and said that the 24 copyright was valid. Do you recall that? 25 A. Yes, I do. 00443 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Yes. And, so, at that point in 1997, the copyright was no 02 longer in the public domain. It was once again a full 03 copyright and The Urantia Foundation had rights, at least 04 according to the United States Court of Appeals. Do you recall 05 that? 06 A. I don't recall the ruling being that it was a full 07 copyright. It was a compilation copyright, which is a very 08 different animal. 09 Q. Okay, okay. Fair enough. 10 A. But in other respects, I agree with your answer. 11 Q. Yes. So, they had some type of a copyright? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Yes. And we'll just say that reasonable minds might 14 differ on the rest of it. 15 But the point that I'm -- 16 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I object to the comment of 17 counsel. 18 THE COURT: Just ask your question, counselor, 19 please. 20 MR. HILL: Sure. 21 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Once -- After 1997, in 1998, Mr. Siegel 22 and Mr. Jameson were then asked to become trustees of Urantia 23 Foundation; correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And once they became trustees of Urantia Foundation, did 00444 { 2:52:10pm} 01 either of them attempt to get you involved in any activities of 02 Urantia Foundation or on behalf of Urantia Foundation? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Okay. Tell the jury about that. What do you recall being 05 invited to do? 06 A. The principal thing was The Urantia Foundation was about 07 to print a new edition of The Urantia Book and Mr. Siegel asked 08 for my help in trying to -- in trying to do that because I had 09 had some experience with book publishing. And, so, he asked me 10 to lay out the steps that would be necessary to get the book 11 printed and to correct the text in ways where errors might have 12 crept in and so forth over the number -- there were, I don't 13 know, eight or -- 10 or 11 printings at that time, so I made a 14 proposal -- he asked me to lay out what the steps would be to 15 accomplish that, first of all, to get the text corrected and, 16 secondly, to go through the typesetting process. 17 Q. Okay. Anything else that you recall in the way of 18 Mr. Jameson or Mr. Siegel attempting to get you involved in 19 Urantia Foundation activities? 20 A. You're going to have to refresh my memory. I can't think 21 of anything else. 22 Q. I'm just asking. 23 A. I'm sorry. I can't think of anything else. There may be 24 but I don't know. 25 Q. Okay. What about Ms. Tonia Baney? Can you ever recall 00445 { 2:52:10pm} 01 her asking you to participate in any Urantia Foundation 02 activities? 03 A. Oh, every time we have a conversation, she does. 04 Q. Okay. And when -- 05 A. She never fails to. 06 Q. When did you start having conversations with Ms. Baney? 07 How far does that go back? 08 A. I'm not sure. 09 Q. Okay. Would you say it goes back more than a year? 10 A. Oh, yeah. 11 Q. More than, say, three years? 12 A. I'm really not sure but I would say three years is 13 probably -- that would probably be a good guess. 14 Q. Okay. And, specifically, do you recall Ms. Baney asking 15 you to participate in a project to make a video or film on the 16 life of Jesus as an alternative to your Jesus - A New 17 Revelation project? 18 A. Oh, she had a laundry list of things that it would be fun, 19 from her standpoint, for me to participate in. 20 Q. And was that one of them? 21 A. Well, I think it was. I'm not sure but it probably was. 22 She would say, "Look, you can do this or you can do this. Just 23 don't do that." That was her basic point. 24 Q. Now, you founded Asoka Foundation in 1996, I thought you 25 said; is that -- 00446 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I think it was 1983. 02 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let's back up. 03 Referring to the tax exemption, when, to the best of your 04 recollection, did Asoka become a tax-exempt organization? 05 A. I think it was in 1983. 06 Q. Okay. So Asoka has been a tax-exempt organization for a 07 number of years? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And at some point during the Maaherra litigation, you 10 began accepting donations from other persons through Asoka 11 Foundation and using that money to help fund Ms. Maaherra's 12 defense and counterclaim challenging the validity of the 13 copyright; isn't that true? 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Object to the form of the question, to 15 the use of the word "you." 16 THE COURT: Restate your question. 17 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Okay. Asoka Foundation at some point began 18 accepting donations from third persons to then take that money 19 and contribute it towards Ms. Maaherra's legal pursuits 20 involving the case with Urantia Foundation? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Yes. And that was done at your behest; true? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. Well, what was the -- 25 A. Well, here's what the situation is. For many years people 00447 { 2:52:10pm} 01 had been aware that I -- 02 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. McMullan. My question is just: Who's 03 behest was it done? 04 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I think he was responding 05 to the question. 06 THE COURT: No, I don't think he was responding to 07 the question. 08 Listen carefully to the question he asked and respond to 09 that question. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 11 THE COURT: You'll be given an opportunity to expand 12 by -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 THE COURT: -- your attorney later on. 15 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Who told you to do that? I mean, was there 16 anyone else in control of Asoka Foundation at that time? 17 A. Money that I gave to Asoka Foundation and that was given 18 in turn to the Maaherra defense was done at my behest. It was 19 not at my behest, I did not solicit other people to give to 20 Asoka Foundation -- 21 Q. Right. 22 A. -- who in turn was sent to the Kristen Maaherra defense. 23 Q. How did people come to know that if they wanted to 24 contribute to Ms. Maaherra's case, they could make a 25 tax-deductible contribution to Asoka Foundation to accomplish 00448 { 2:52:10pm} 01 that purpose? 02 A. Asoka had been around for many, many years and people had 03 been doing that same sort of thing with respect to Urantia 04 activities. And, so, -- 05 Q. Asoka had been funding people's legal defenses since the 06 early 1980s or was this the first time? 07 A. I don't think that Asoka Foundation has ever funded a 08 legal case other -- helped to fund a legal case other than in 09 the Maaherra defense. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. There are lots of other projects though. 12 Q. Right. Oh, I have no doubt. We've seen some of the work 13 product. 14 My next question is: How much did you personally, either 15 through Asoka Foundation or individually, contribute to 16 Ms. Maaherra for use in litigation with Urantia Foundation? 17 A. About $73,000. 18 Q. Thank you. 19 You called your organization, during your direct 20 examination, The Urantia Fellowship. Do you recall that? 21 A. It was a misstatement if I did say that. 22 Q. Okay. Okay. It's The Urantia Book Fellowship, isn't it? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. And The Urantia Book Fellowship, when The Fellowship 25 changed to that particular name, there are a number, Urantia 00449 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Foundation objected; isn't that true? 02 A. I believe it is. 03 Q. Yes. And there was -- there was, just a few months ago in 04 March, a mediation between Urantia Foundation and The 05 Fellowship to try to resolve that and some other issues without 06 having to go into the courts; isn't that true? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And Mr. Plourde represented The Urantia Book Fellowship in 09 those proceedings; isn't that true? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And one of the things that came out of that mediation was 12 that The Fellowship agreed to license from Urantia Foundation 13 the right to use the name The Urantia Book Fellowship; isn't 14 that true? 15 A. That's my understanding. 16 Q. Yes. And, as a result of that -- of those negotiations, 17 the parties, The Urantia Book Fellowship and Urantia 18 Foundation, were able to avoid going into a more formal legal 19 process; true? 20 A. That's my understanding. 21 Q. While the Maaherra case was pending on appeal, as an 22 executive of The Fellowship, did you support the notion that 23 The Fellowship should intervene in that Maaherra appeal and 24 file a brief on behalf of Ms. Maaherra's position? 25 A. Yes. 00450 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And was that, in fact, done? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And Mr. Plourde was the attorney who represented 04 The Fellowship in participating at that appellate level; true? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. And he filed a brief on behalf of The Fellowship with the 07 United States Court of Appeals on behalf of Ms. Maaherra; true? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Mr. Plourde has been your personal attorney for a number 10 of years? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many years would you say? 13 A. 18 or 20, 15. Somewhere between 15 and 20 years, I would 14 say. 15 Q. Now, this case was originally filed in Arizona; true? 16 Urantia Foundation -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- originally brought an action against Michael Foundation 19 regarding Jesus - A New Revelation in Arizona; isn't that true? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And isn't it also true that that is the locale, the 22 jurisdiction, where The Urantia Foundation Maaherra litigation 23 had occurred? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, you mentioned, in connection with this case, that 00451 { 2:52:10pm} 01 your position has essentially changed during this litigation, 02 hasn't it? 03 A. In some ways. In other ways, not. Partly yes, partly no. 04 Q. When you brought this case in this court challenging the 05 validity of Urantia Foundation's copyright, my understanding of 06 the complaint, and you correct me if I'm wrong, was that part 07 IV was revelation and it didn't have any human authors, so 08 there couldn't be a copyright; isn't that true? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. But as a result of certain documents that you've seen in 11 publicly-available records and Urantia Foundation's business 12 records, you've come to a different conclusion; right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that conclusion is that this was a person who wrote 15 this and it was written by inspiration, sort of like Dali's 16 painting; correct? 17 A. I don't know about Dali's painting, sir. 18 Q. Okay. Well -- 19 A. But it was written by inspiration, yes. 20 Q. I understand. 21 In the Urantia -- now, The Urantia Foundation/Burton case 22 was one of the things that you mentioned. You said that in 23 that case Urantia Foundation took the position that the subject 24 of the contact sessions between The Contact Commission and the 25 sleeping subject was actually the author of the Urantia Papers 00452 { 2:52:10pm} 01 that are in The Urantia Book. Do you recall that testimony? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And isn't it -- That case never actually went before a 04 jury; isn't that correct? 05 A. That's correct. 06 Q. You've reviewed that file? 07 A. Yes, I have. 08 Q. And you're personally familiar with its contents? 09 A. Well, I've reviewed it. 10 Q. From a standpoint of having reviewed it to see if there 11 was anything in there to assist you in preparing your case; 12 correct? 13 A. I'm not a lawyer, but I reviewed it. 14 Q. Right. 15 A. I reviewed it in a sense of a lay person reading it, yes. 16 Q. Right. Yesterday, the Judge gave the jury an instruction 17 regarding summary judgment. Do you know what summary judgment 18 is? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Tell the jury what your lay understanding of summary 21 judgment is. 22 A. It is an action by the Court that -- in which the Court 23 decides that the position taken by one party is correct as a 24 matter of law even if you give all the benefit of the facts to 25 the opposing party. How'd I do? 00453 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. I think -- I give you an A on that exam. 02 A. Okay. 03 Q. So, the issue then, if Urantia Foundation wants summary 04 judgment in the Burton case, Urantia Foundation has to accept 05 the facts in the light most favorable to Mr. Burton's claim; 06 true? 07 A. True. 08 Q. And do you know in that case whether or not Mr. Burton was 09 claiming that he had been told by Dr. Sadler that the sleeping 10 subject had written the Urantia Papers? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And do you know whether or not Mr. Burton was therefore 13 claiming that the sleeping subject was the author of the 14 Urantia Papers and he had not given whatever rights he had in 15 those papers to Dr. Sadler and The Contact Commission? 16 A. That's my understanding. 17 Q. Yes. And, so, on summary judgment, in order to get 18 summary judgment, then Urantia Foundation would have to accept 19 what Mr. Burton was alleging to the Court as true and say, "We 20 still win"; right? 21 A. I think that's correct. 22 Q. In your mind, is that the same thing as conceding the 23 point as to who the author of the Urantia Papers are believed 24 to be? 25 A. In this case, yes. 00454 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Okay. Now, you also mentioned a certain affidavit by 02 Edith Cook, and you've seen that affidavit, you've reviewed its 03 contents personally; is that correct? 04 A. Yes, I have. 05 Q. And that affidavit was filed by Urantia Foundation in the 06 Burton King litigation; true? 07 A. That's my understanding. 08 Q. Yes. So -- And in that affidavit, I believe you 09 mentioned Ms. Cook states that Dr. Sadler came into possession 10 of 196 handwritten manuscripts between the years 1926 and 1935; 11 true? 12 A. That's my recollection. 13 Q. Yes. And that document -- Are you aware of any facts 14 that would suggest that that document is not a part of the 15 public record? It was filed in a court case; right? 16 A. I never heard of it until you introduced it, so I don't 17 know how to respond to that. 18 Q. Right. 19 A. I didn't know -- I didn't know that it was part of that 20 case. 21 Q. Right. You had never gone to Los Angeles where that case 22 went on and looked -- 23 A. At that time we had never -- we did not have the file on 24 the Urantia research case. Never seen it. 25 Q. Okay. And based upon your review of the Cook affidavit, 00455 { 2:52:10pm} 01 combined with Dr. Sadler's statements that the phenomenon that 02 he observed was not the product of automatic writing, like 03 trance-like writing -- isn't that how you understand that term? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Based upon that concession, you therefore conclude that 06 the Urantia Papers, instead of being pure revelation, are 07 instead an inspired work product of a single person; true? 08 A. To me, the logic is inescapable. 09 Q. Okay. You actually have the financial means, do you not, 10 to buy Urantia Books and disseminate them any way you want, 11 with the exception of there may be some price limitations 12 because you have to buy them retail? 13 MR. ABOWITZ: Object to the form, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Restate your question, counsel. A little 15 hard to -- 16 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Do you have the financial means to buy 17 1,000 Urantia Books and give them away, if you're so inclined? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. And has Urantia Foundation ever, say in the last five 20 years, tried to put a limitation on how many Urantia Books you 21 could buy? 22 A. No. 23 Q. They ever tell you that they didn't approve of the study 24 group that you're participating in here in Oklahoma? 25 A. No. 00456 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Ever try to interfere in your efforts to purchase a church 02 building here in Oklahoma City? 03 A. No. 04 Q. Ever tell you that you were misinterpreting The Urantia 05 Book or otherwise attempt to propound an official version of 06 The Urantia Book's views? 07 A. Not in any serious way. 08 Q. And I believe you testified in your deposition that 09 Urantia Foundation, as you understand it, is not set up to be a 10 church; true? 11 A. True. 12 Q. And your organization, The Fellowship, is not set up to be 13 a church; true? 14 A. True. 15 Q. Urantia Foundation has a social affiliate known as 16 International Urantia Association; isn't that true? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 Q. Isn't it true that that organization is organized fairly 19 similarly to the organization of The Fellowship? 20 A. No, based on what I've seen of your records, that would 21 not be true. 22 Q. Okay. Does The Fellowship have local groups that meet and 23 study The Urantia Book? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And they affiliate with The Fellowship, the local 00457 { 2:52:10pm} 01 societies; true? 02 A. Well, there's a difference between the study groups and 03 the societies. It's quite a difference in the way it's set 04 up. 05 Q. Okay. Okay. 06 A. There are study groups in both cases, if that's what 07 you're getting to. 08 Q. Both organizations facilitate the study of the book in a 09 group fashion; right? 10 A. Right, and many of them are combined. Many times, the 11 same people that are adherents to The Urantia Foundation 12 because they share the same book will go to the study groups 13 with the ones that are on The Fellowship side. 14 Q. Yes. And there are people in The Fellowship and people 15 who support Urantia Foundation or members of IUA who are 16 friendly with one another, wouldn't you agree with that? 17 A. Absolutely. 18 Q. Yes. And some of those people even include people like 19 Gard Jameson and Mo Seigel who are former Fellowship executives 20 and are now executives for Urantia Foundation; true? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. I mean, they still have friends in The Fellowship; isn't 23 that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And once they joined the board of Urantia Foundation in 00458 { 2:52:10pm} 01 1998, did they tell you anything about what they wanted to see 02 in terms of creating more goodwill between the two 03 organizations? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Did they indicate that that was, in fact, a goal of 06 theirs? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. They did. 09 And is it not also true that within about six months of 10 their becoming trustees, Urantia Foundation came out with 11 published fair use policies on copyright and trademark, 12 including the one that we were observing during your direct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And do you know whether or not Mr. Siegel and Mr. Jameson 15 supported formal fair use policies to help provide some 16 assurances to persons who wanted to use material from The 17 Urantia Book and use the words "Urantia" and "Urantian"? 18 A. I would think so. I don't know of my own knowledge. 19 Q. So you never had any discussions with them about that or 20 what gave rise to those policis? 21 A. I don't believe that I did, but I feel sure they would 22 have supported it. 23 Q. And is there any official -- official interpretation of 24 The Urantia Book that you're aware of? Is there any 25 organization out there that says, "Hey, this paragraph right 00459 { 2:52:10pm} 01 here means this and if you really believe in The Urantia Book, 02 this is what you need to follow"? 03 A. No. Thank goodness, no. 04 Q. Yes. It's fair to say, is it not, that the contents of 05 The Urantia Book make up a very -- for some people, form the 06 basis of a very personal religion; is that true? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. I mean, a one-on-one relationship between the individual 09 reader and their god, whoever -- or however they perceive God 10 to exist; true? 11 A. That would be the most important aspect of it. 12 Q. Yes. And are you aware of any Muslims, for example, that 13 read The Urantia Book? 14 A. There are not very many. I think there are a couple. 15 Q. Are you aware of any Jews that read The Urantia Book? 16 A. Yes, there are a number of Jews. 17 Q. Any Christians? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. A number of Christians? 20 A. A number of Christians, yes. The preponderence would be 21 Christians and Jews. 22 Q. Okay. So, reading the book and believing or at least 23 thinking that it has a strong message does not necessarily make 24 you fit for one particular religious denomination or 25 affiliation; correct? 00460 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Could you restate the question, please? 02 Q. Sure. Sure. I'll try to make it simpler. 03 Just because you read The Urantia Book doesn't mean you 04 also agree with, say, Judaism? 05 A. Correct. 06 Q. Or Christianity? 07 A. Correct. 08 Q. Or Muslim faith, if you're so inclined? 09 A. Be a little tougher there. 10 Q. But there are some? 11 A. There are some. 12 Q. Yes. Now, in your -- you've told me before that you've 13 communicated that you think the 10-year nightmare of stifling 14 religious expression is about to end with this case. Do you 15 recall telling me that? 16 A. That's my prayer. 17 Q. Yes. And your perception of what is going on in this case 18 is, it's fair to say, is that you're attempting to express your 19 religious faith with Jesus - A New Revelation, and Urantia 20 Foundation is attempting to stifle that? 21 A. I don't agree with that as a characterization of this case 22 at all. 23 Q. Okay. Well -- 24 A. I'm not hiding behind religion to say that I'm entitled to 25 do this because it's my religion. It's just a copyright case. 00461 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Okay. Well, we'll certainly look at that when we get to 02 some exhibits later on. 03 Let me ask you a question though. Do you perceive -- 04 let's take your last statement, that this is just a copyright 05 case, should be evaluated as a copyright case, but as a 06 by-product of Urantia Foundation's efforts to enforce its 07 copyright, is it stifling your religious expression? 08 A. Well, I'm sitting here in this stand as a result of not 09 being able to produce this work, so I would say that's -- I 10 would call that stifling. 11 Q. Now, nobody actually told you or made you stop producing 12 the work while this litigation was going on; true? 13 A. No, that's really not true. 14 Q. Okay. Are you under any court order that prevents you 15 from printing the book right now? 16 A. The Urantia Foundation filed for -- I believe they filed 17 for an injunction against the distribution. But you'll have to 18 correct -- I don't know if these were discussions between the 19 lawyers or what, so I'm a little shaky on that part. The 20 concept was you guys were going to file for an injunction 21 against the distribution unless we voluntarily ceased, and so 22 we voluntarily ceased to publish because we were going to wait 23 and get the results from this court, one way or the other, as 24 to whether, you know, whether there is a copyright or not. 25 Q. Okay. Do you recall during the time that Urantia 00462 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Foundation filed suit against Robert Burton in the 1970s, do 02 you recall a time when you became aware, sometime in the mid 03 1970s, that that litigation was going on? 04 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm -- I didn't follow that 05 question. 06 THE COURT: Well, I couldn't either. Your voice 07 dropped down at the end, counselor. Restate that slowly and 08 carefully so I can understand what you're asking. 09 Q. (BY MR. HILL) In the mid 1970s, do you recall becoming 10 aware of litigation, copyright litigation, between Urantia 11 Foundation and Robert Burton? 12 A. I didn't get involved in the organization until 1979, so I 13 think that was -- I was kind of an independent reader but I 14 never had any involvement with the organizations. It just 15 never -- I don't even know if I knew about it. It's possible I 16 did but I certainly did not ever see any filings or have any 17 real concept of the issues apart from -- if I knew anything, it 18 would have been here's a guy that Urantia Foundation is suing. 19 So, it was no familiarity whatsoever with the issues. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. And maybe not even any that there was a case. 22 Q. Do you recall -- When did you first visit Urantia 23 Foundation? 24 A. I think it was in 1969. 25 Q. And who did you meet? 00463 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I met Emma Christensen and a lady -- Edith Cook, and a 02 lady named Anna Rossen. I think those were the three ladies 03 that I met, three older ladies. 04 Q. And did you enjoy your visit with Urantia Foundation in 05 1969? 06 A. Yes, I did. 07 Q. Did you return between 1969 and 1975? 08 A. Yes, I did. 09 Q. How many times? 10 A. I'm not sure. I was probably there -- I really don't 11 know. At least a couple or three more times. I'm not sure. 12 Q. Okay. During any of those visits, did anyone ever mention 13 to you that there was a copyright lawsuit going on with Robert 14 Burton? 15 A. Not that I can recall. 16 Q. Okay. So, is it your testimony that during that time, 17 during the mid 1970s, you had no recollection that that 18 litigation was going on? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Okay. Mr. McMullan, can you find in those three black 21 binders that are behind your right shoulder there, can you find 22 a document that is marked 51, behind tab 51? 23 THE WITNESS: Judge, may I move this, please? 24 THE COURT: Sure. 25 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Are you with me? 00464 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I am. 02 Q. Do you recognize Urantia Foundation exhibit 51? 03 A. Yes, I do. 04 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom? 05 A. Yes, it is. 06 Q. Is this a letter that you wrote to Emma Christensen on or 07 about July 24th, 1975? 08 A. Yes, it is. 09 MR. HILL: Your Honor, at this time Urantia 10 Foundation would move for the admission of Urantia Foundation 11 exhibit 51 into evidence. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: I have no objection. 13 THE COURT: Be admitted. 14 MR. HILL: Okay. Call it up. 15 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And, of course, you're affectionately 16 referring to Ms. Christensen as Christie, which was her 17 nickname, I understand; true? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, in the first four paragraphs of the letter, you're 20 relaying very personal information to Ms. Christensen; is that 21 not correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You're telling her how things are going. You didn't live 24 in Chicago at the time; true? 25 A. True. 00465 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And where did you live at this point in time? 02 A. I lived in Washington, North Carolina. 03 Q. Okay. But then in the last paragraph -- 04 MR. HILL: Bob, can you call up the last paragraph, 05 "Needless to say." 06 Q. (BY MR. HILL) You say, "Needless to say, I support The 07 Urantia Foundation 100 percent in your efforts to combat 08 infringement of the copyright. I think of you often." 09 So you were aware that there was copyright infringement 10 litigation going on? 11 A. Well, it sounds like I was. 12 Q. And you were friendly with Urantia Foundation at that 13 time, or at least some of its officers? 14 A. I was very friendly with them. 15 MR. HILL: You can take it down. 16 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And in 1989 -- Would you flip back to 17 Urantia Foundation exhibit 50. Do you recognize Urantia 18 Foundation exhibit 50? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Will you tell the jury what that document is. 21 A. This is an agreement that I entered into in conjunction 22 with giving Urantia Foundation the keyword index. 23 Q. Okay. Is that the keyword index project that you referred 24 to in your direct examination? 25 A. Yes, it is. 00466 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Is that your signature on the agreement? 02 A. Yes, it is. 03 MR. HILL: Your Honor, at this point in time, Urantia 04 Foundation moves for the admission of exhibit 50. 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Relevancy, Your Honor. 06 THE COURT: Overruled. Be admitted. 07 MR. HILL: Thank you, Your Honor. 08 Call up Urantia Foundation exhibit 50. 09 Can you blow up the first "Whereas"? Actually, blow up 10 the first paragraph, please, Bob. 11 Q. (BY MR. HILL) The first paragraph of this document 12 reflects the fact that an agreement is being entered into by 13 and between Urantia Foundation and Harry McMullan, III. Is 14 that your handwriting on the first paragraph? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 MR. HILL: Bob, can you blow up the second paragraph, 17 the first "Whereas" clause? 18 Q. (BY MR. HILL) The first "Whereas" clause of the agreement 19 says, "Whereas Urantia Foundation is the owner of all right, 20 title and interest in and to the copyright in a book entitled 21 The Urantia Book and has registered its copyright." 22 Do you see that? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. That was in the agreement that you signed; true? 25 A. True. 00467 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And if you drop down to the first, "Now therefore," that 02 states, "In consideration of the foregoing, and other good and 03 valuable consideration, McMullan hereby acknowledges that 04 Urantia Foundation is the sole owner of all right, title and 05 interest in and to the copyright in The Urantia Book." 06 You agreed to that at least at the time in 1989? 07 A. I signed the document. 08 Q. You signed the document. 09 You actually made -- that's your change on that paragraph, 10 isn't it? You took a pen and you struck a certain portion of 11 that because it says, "Any and all derivative works thereof"; 12 true? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you had already published by this point in time 15 When Things Go Wrong and 21 Steps and other secondary works 16 pertaining to The Urantia Book; true? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So, what you were reflecting with that striking of that 19 language was that you didn't want to give your rights to all of 20 the works that you had been permitted to make over to Urantia 21 Foundation; true? 22 A. True. 23 Q. Okay. 24 MR. HILL: You can take it down, Bob. Thank you. 25 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Is it your perception that the copyright 00468 { 2:52:10pm} 01 and the trademark rights of Urantia Foundation give Urantia 02 Foundation some power that your organizations, Michael 03 Foundation and Asoka Foundation, Fellowship, don't have and, 04 therefore, some type of an advantage over them? 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Object to the form, Your Honor. 06 THE COURT: Yes, I didn't follow the question. 07 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Do you perceive the copyright as being an 08 instrument of power? 09 A. I don't think there is a valid copyright. 10 Q. Well, I understand that that's your contention, but have 11 you ever been under the impression that the copyright is an 12 instrument of power? 13 A. Of course. 14 Q. Is that also true for the trademarks? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. HILL: Can I approach the witness, Your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 Q. (BY MR. HILL) I've handed you Michael Foundation exhibit 19 35. Is that a document that you're familiar with? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. It's a document that you wrote to Urantia Foundation? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. And what's the date on the document? 24 A. October 28th, 1999. 25 Q. Okay. And does it pertain to some of the subject matter 00469 { 2:52:10pm} 01 of this litigation? 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, we'll stipulate it may be 03 admitted. 04 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect. It will be 05 admitted. 06 MR. HILL: Would you call up Michael Foundation 07 exhibit 35? Go to the top, please. Can you highlight that, 08 the date and the -- all the way down through, "Dear." Can you 09 enlarge it? 10 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Is this a letter you wrote to the trustees 11 of Urantia Foundation? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. Okay. 14 MR. HILL: Can you enlarge the first paragraph? 15 There you go. 16 Q. (BY MR. HILL) This is your -- This is your letter to the 17 trustees and it pertains to -- it's in response to a letter 18 from the trustees asking you to cease and desist from 19 publishing Jesus - A New Revelation; true? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. And -- well, I won't have you read. 22 You say there that -- you interpret the letter that you 23 received as an effort to dissuade you from your efforts to 24 share Jesus' gospel with the world. 25 A. Yes. 00470 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. But your contention is that for you this is just a 02 copyright case; true? 03 A. That's all that should be before this court. For me and 04 my faith, it's much, much more than that. 05 Q. Okay. 06 MR. HILL: Drop down to the next paragraph, below the 07 quote. There you go. 08 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Did you write this? 09 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. You say, "Notwithstanding your theories about my 11 motivations, you should understand that in assisting Michael 12 Foundation in publishing Jesus - A New Revelation, I am 13 determined to obey Jesus by carrying out his instructions as 14 given in his statement above. I will do this for the remainder 15 of my life according to my best understanding of his 16 instructions, with all the energy, purpose, and resources 17 available to me, and regardless of the consequences." 18 You wrote that; correct? 19 A. I did. 20 Q. Can you turn to page 3 of the document, please, sir. 21 MR. HILL: Top paragraph. Hold on just a second. 22 Q. (BY MR. HILL) You say at the top there, "I am attempting 23 to carry out Jesus' instructions as I understand them and I 24 fully intend to do that regardless of anyone's approval or 25 disapproval." Is that true? 00471 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Yes, it is. 02 Q. Is that still your determination? 03 A. I don't intend to violate an order of this court, if 04 that's what you're getting around to, no. But in terms of 05 people that are on my level of doing things, like, you know, 06 other people like Urantia Foundation, absolutely. 07 Q. Okay. 08 MR. HILL: Can you turn to page 4 of the letter, 09 please? Next-to-last paragraph. Yeah. 10 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Here, you write, "Your recent letter 11 states, 'The real question is whether your decision to 12 reproduce, as a separate work, the final 76 papers of The 13 Urantia Book constitutes an infringement of the copyright.' I 14 disagree. From Michael's standpoint, the only one that counts 15 for me, the real question is our relationship to Him, His 16 gospel, and to His unmistakeably clear instructions as to what 17 we must do with His gospel." 18 You wrote that; correct? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Do you agree with the proposition that following 21 your relig- -- the dicta of your conscience in matters of 22 religion provides you with an excuse to break the law? 23 A. No, I don't. 24 Q. So if this jury finds that what you have done in this case 25 and what you want to do on a going-forward basis is illegal, 00472 { 2:52:10pm} 01 you will abide by the jury's decision? 02 A. I certainly will. 03 Q. Have you ever told anyone that you wanted to do any harm 04 or damage to Urantia Foundation? 05 A. No. 06 Q. You have not? 07 A. No. 08 Q. And you recall when I asked you earlier in connection with 09 this case whether you had ever said anything to the effect that 10 you wanted to bring all your financial resources to harm 11 Urantia Foundation or destroy Urantia Foundation and you said 12 you never said anything like that. 13 A. Well, I know what you're going to bring up but I think at 14 the time I disputed that I had said it. So, -- 15 Q. Okay. I assume by that, you're referring to the memo that 16 I showed you from Ms. Baney to the trustees? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. But you never told Les Tibbals, for example, that 19 you'd fight Urantia every way possible? Ever say that? 20 A. I don't think I would have said that. I think what he 21 might have -- well, if you want me to elaborate -- 22 Q. No, I want your recollection. 23 A. I think he misunderstood what I was getting at. 24 Q. Okay. Well, I mean, I'm not saying that he says it or he 25 doesn't say it. I'm just asking you whether or not you ever 00473 { 2:52:10pm} 01 said that in his presence. Yes or no. 02 A. No. 03 Q. Did you ever -- Have you ever told anyone that Urantia 04 Foundation is pure evil? 05 A. If I did, I apologize. 06 Q. Okay. 07 A. I hope I didn't. 08 Q. Okay. Have you ever told anyone -- Ann Garner, for 09 instance -- and who is Ann Garner? 10 A. She is a Urantian from the Dallas area. 11 Q. Okay. Did she serve with you for a while on the executive 12 committee or general council of The Fellowship? 13 A. I'm not sure if she was on the council but I've known her 14 for a number of years. She may have been. 15 Q. She has been affiliated with The Fellowship for a number 16 of years; is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you ever state in her presence that you would bring 19 all your resources to bear to destroy Urantia Foundation? 20 A. The difference is whether it's a copyright or Urantia 21 Foundation. I'm fine with Urantia Foundation. It's just the 22 the copyright aspect of it and I think maybe that's where the 23 source of this misunderstanding comes in. I want Urantia 24 Foundation to print the book, to do translations. I just don't 25 want this hammer over -- that prevents other people from doing 00474 { 2:52:10pm} 01 it. It's true, I've gotten emotional about this thing, and I 02 don't doubt that I've said some things I shouldn't have said. 03 Q. Did you tell Ms. Baney, for example, that you'd keep 04 Urantia Foundation in court for the rest of your life and hers? 05 A. I think I did say that, and I regret it. I was mad. 06 Q. Approximately when did you say that? 07 A. Well, I'm remembering the memo that you showed me and I 08 can't -- I mean, that's the conversation. I would say a year- 09 and-a-half ago, but I'm not exactly sure. I'm not exactly sure 10 when it was. 11 Q. If I suggested to you that the date of that memo was April 12 of 1997, would that refresh your recollection? 13 A. Of '97? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. No, it really doesn't refresh me too much. 16 THE COURT: Counselor, can we take a luncheon break 17 here? 18 MR. HILL: Perfect. 19 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll 20 be recessed until 1:15. Be back in the jury assembly room at 21 that time. I'll remind you of my previous admonition not to 22 discuss this case. 23 Everyone please stand and remain standing. 24 (THE JURY WAS EXCUSED FROM THE COURTROOM, AFTER WHICH THE 25 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT:) 00475 { 2:52:10pm} 01 THE COURT: Court is in recess. 02 (THE LUNCHEON RECESS WAS TAKEN) 03 00476 { 2:52:10pm} 01 AFTERNOON SESSION 02 THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 2001 03 --------------------------------------------------------------- 04 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 05 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 06 THE COURT: Be seated, please. 07 Mr. Hill, you may resume your examination. 08 MR. HILL: Thank you, Judge. 09 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Mr. McMullan, how much money did you 10 contribute to Michael Foundation in order to finance Jesus - A 11 New Revelation? 12 A. Approximately 30-, $35,000. 13 Q. And did anyone else contribute funds to finance that 14 project? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who else? 17 A. Mary Talley. 18 Q. That's your sister? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How much money did she contribute? 21 A. $25,000. 22 Q. Did those payments represent the total cost of financing 23 the Jesus - A New Revelation project? 24 A. They represented roughly the out-of-pocket costs. All of 25 the typesetting and creation of the index. There were 00477 { 2:52:10pm} 01 substantial other costs involved which probably, if you had to 02 buy them outside, would have been at least that same amount 03 over again. 04 Q. How many hours did you spend working on creating the 05 prototype that you took to the publisher, you personally? 06 A. Really be hard to say. Maybe 800 or 1,000. 07 Q. 800 to 1,000 hours? 08 A. Maybe. I've never thought of it that way. But a lot of 09 time. 10 Q. And it is true, is it not, that Michael Foundation sold at 11 least some copies of Jesus - A New Revelation before you 12 voluntarily ceased further distribution efforts? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And it is also true, I believe, that the base price for 15 Jesus - A New Revelation, according to Michael Foundation's 16 records, is $8.95 a copy unless it's bought in bulk? 17 A. I think that's the bulk price. 18 Q. Oh, the bulk price is $8.95? 19 A. I think that's the bulk price. I'm not sure but I think 20 that's right. 21 Q. Okay. And do you recall, I asked you earlier during this 22 case a question as to whether or not Michael Foundation or you 23 had conducted any analysis of the market for sales of either 24 possible sales of Jesus - A New Revelation or the impact of 25 those sales on the sale of The Urantia Book; do you recall me 00478 { 2:52:10pm} 01 asking you that? 02 A. Yes, I do. 03 Q. And do you recall what your answer was? 04 A. Yes, I do. 05 Q. And your answer was that you did not conduct any type of 06 market analysis? 07 A. That's correct. 08 Q. We heard a lot of testimony yesterday about the way that 09 the -- the process that was involved in leading up to the 10 publication of The Urantia Book. Do you deny the existence of 11 The Contact Commission? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Do you deny the existence of a group known as The 14 Forum? 15 A. No. 16 Q. And you certainly don't deny the sleeping subject; 17 correct? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you deny that there were contact sessions that took 20 place between the subject and the Contact Commissioners? 21 A. It's hard to answer that "yes" or "no". I could elaborate 22 if you want me to. Otherwise, I'm not able to give an answer. 23 Q. Okay. Are you familiar -- Do you deny that it was a 24 long-term process that led up to the creation of all of the 25 final forms of the 196 Urantia Papers in manuscript form? 00479 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. The evidence in the record to me is that it was at least 02 three years, two to three years. 03 Q. Okay. Now, earlier -- 04 A. It may have been longer. 05 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. 06 Two to three years. Earlier this morning, your testimony, 07 as I recall it, was that you saw an affidavit from one Edith 08 Cook and that affidavit had a profound influence on the way 09 that you viewed the facts underlying this case; correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And does not Ms. Cook in her affidavit say that Dr. Sadler 12 came into the possession of the papers between the years 1926 13 and 1935? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And that would suggest a nine-year process; true? 16 A. Well, the word "between" doesn't necessarily mean over the 17 whole period. 18 Q. Okay. Okay. Tell me what evidence you've looked at to 19 conclude that it was at least a two to three-year process. 20 A. It would be the dating in The Urantia Book which says that 21 it's written in 1930 -- excuse me -- 1934 and 1935 as far as 22 parts I, II and III, and the evidence in this case indicates 23 that part IV came one year later than that. So that would be 24 either 1935 or 1936. So, presumably, the man to have written 25 this, it could have taken him -- it's a huge book -- and so it 00480 { 2:52:10pm} 01 would have taken him some period of time prior to that. 02 But as to -- I haven't seen any evidence that it actually 03 was any -- I don't know. I just don't have a basis to know one 04 way or the other. 05 Q. Okay. Fair enough. 06 Have you ever read Dr. Sadler's book, The Mind of 07 Mischief? 08 A. I've read the appendix to it. 09 Q. You have? What is the significance of the appendix to 10 you, if any? 11 A. Well, in this case, there have been a number of people 12 that have -- including Mr. Keeler -- that said that the person 13 who is the patient of Dr. Sadler referred to in The Mind of 14 Mischief is the same person as the contact personality, and 15 there doesn't seem to be any dispute about that. So, most 16 people have assumed that it's the same person referred to in 17 The Mind of Mischief. 18 Q. Okay. 19 MR. HILL: Judge, The Mind of Mischief is Urantia 20 Foundation exhibit 102. I believe we put it on the record 21 already. If not, I'd like to move it into evidence at this 22 time. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: You say it is in the record? 24 MR. HILL: It's a part of the stipulation. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 00481 { 2:52:10pm} 01 THE COURT: Admitted. 02 MR. HILL: Thank you, Judge. 03 Q. (BY MR. HILL) I set a copy -- a carbon copy of the text 04 of the book there, it's Urantia Foundation 102. Turn to the 05 index that starts at page 382 and 383, if you would. 06 THE WITNESS: Judge, may I -- 07 THE COURT: Right up here, if you need to. 08 MR. HILL: Bob, can we pull that up? 09 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 383? 10 MR. HILL: Yeah, 383. 382 and 383. 11 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Let's take a look at the first paragraph at 12 the top. 13 MR. HILL: Can you blow that up, Bob? Yeah. 14 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Here the doctor writes, "I was brought in 15 contact with it in the summer of 1911 and I've had it under my 16 observation more or less ever since, having been present at 17 probably 250 of the night sessions, many of which have been 18 attended by a stenographer who made voluminous notes." 19 Mr. McMullan, are you aware of any evidence from all of 20 the documents that you've looked at in this case that refutes 21 the proposition that Dr. Sadler states in the appendix? 22 A. Well, if you mean did those notes go into the Urantia 23 Book, yes. If you mean just the simple statement there, no. 24 Q. Yes. That's all -- just talking about the earliest 25 contact sessions right now. 00482 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Do you have any idea what, if any, time these contact 02 sessions ended? 03 A. I have no knowledge whatsoever. 04 Q. Okay. Do you know what the date was in which Dr. Sadler's 05 book, The Mind of Mischief, was published? 06 A. I believe it has a date of 1929 on the copyright page. 07 Q. Yes. 08 MR. HILL: Bob, can you drop down three paragraphs to 09 the paragraph that starts, "18 years"? 10 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Dr. Sadler writes, "18 years of study and 11 careful investigation have failed to reveal the psychic origin 12 of these messages. I find myself at the present time just 13 where I was when I started." 14 Are you aware of any evidence that would refute the 15 proposition that these contact sessions began at least as early 16 as 1911 based upon subtracting 1929 -- 18 years from the 1929 17 date of this book? 18 A. I don't know about the term "contact sessions." You'll 19 have to define that for me. 20 Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Night sessions. I'll use 21 Dr. Sadler's terminology here. 22 A. I know nothing about this other than what you're seeing -- 23 what you have in this appendix. I have no basis for any 24 independent -- 25 Q. And you haven't seen any documentation in the case that 00483 { 2:52:10pm} 01 contradicts what's written -- 02 A. The fact that he had night sessions with a patient, no, 03 not at all. 04 Q. 250. 05 Is there anything in this appendix, which is three pages 06 long, where Dr. Sadler refers to the subject as a patient? 07 A. With your permission, I'm going to need to take this apart 08 and look at it. 09 Q. Oh, by all means. 10 A. It's been a long time since -- 11 Q. No. By all means. 12 A. He refers to it as "case" but you could take that several 13 ways. 14 Q. "The patient" is not a term that's employed in the 15 appendix? 16 A. No, not that I have seen, just looking at it right there. 17 Q. Okay. And "the stenographer taking notes" reference in 18 the appendix, The Mind of Mischief, do you have any 19 understanding who that person is? 20 A. None at all. 21 Q. Do you have any evidence to refute the proposition that it 22 was Emma Christensen? 23 A. I have -- yes, I think so, because my impression is that 24 Emma Christensen first came in contact with Dr. Sadler in 25 the -- sometime in the '20s, and this would be -- you know, the 00484 { 2:52:10pm} 01 reference of this going on from 1911 to 1929 would imply that 02 there was a long period of time prior to that that she wasn't 03 around. So, that would be my only comment on it. 04 Q. Okay. Let me show you -- 05 MR. HILL: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 06 THE COURT: Sure. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have the exhibit number, please? 08 MR. HILL: Oh, I'm sorry. It's Michael Foundation 09 exhibit 102. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 11 THE COURT: Be admitted. What's the number? 12 MR. HILL: Michael Foundation 102. 13 Can you call it up? Can you blow it up? Third paragraph 14 down. 15 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Do you recognize this to be a letter from 16 Emma Christensen to Julia Fenderson in 1964? 17 A. Well, it's not my letter but it's my belief that's what it 18 is. 19 Q. Yeah. I mean, those are the names that are on the letter; 20 correct? 21 A. I don't actually see Emma Christensen's name on here, but 22 from the context I don't see how it could be from anyone else. 23 Q. Okay. And in that letter, it states, "I did not take down 24 any of the Urantia papers in shorthand. The papers came in 25 through the subject's handwriting and I copied them." 00485 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Then dropping down to the last sentence of the paragraph, 02 it says, "I did use my shorthand a good deal but not for the 03 papers as we have them in book form today." 04 So, taking that letter and putting it in the context of 05 what we just looked at in Dr. Sadler's appendix to The Mind of 06 Mischief, we'd have to conclude that there were other notes 07 that were being taken down other than the papers as we have 08 them in the book; correct? 09 A. Yes, but I thought of another piece of evidence here, if I 10 could be permitted to amend my answer about Emma Christensen 11 before that just came into my mind. 12 Q. Do you have it by number so that I can get to it quickly 13 if I want to ask you questions about it? 14 A. No. Well, I can tell you what it is. 15 Q. Okay. Tell me briefly. 16 A. Well, it's a fairly fascinating thing. It was an 17 interrogatory in the Burton case that Urantia Foundation was 18 asked to name who the subject was by Mr. Burton in this case, 19 and Urantia Foundation said no, that they had taken an oath not 20 to do so and didn't want to do that. And then Mr. Burton 21 continued with it and the judge finally gave an order saying, 22 "You might have taken an oath but it's not binding on this 23 court, and so it's relevant to the case. Reveal who the 24 patient is." And then there was a motion to reconsider. And 25 in the motion to reconsider, The Urantia Foundation said that 00486 { 2:52:10pm} 01 the only person alive who was active in The Urantia Foundation 02 at that time was Emma Christensen and she did not know, of her 03 own knowledge, who the contact personality was. 04 Q. That just means she didn't know a name to identify; 05 correct? 06 A. Well, that doesn't seem very likely or possible to me. If 07 she was there taking stenography for 250 sessions or however 08 many, I think surely she would know the man's name. 09 Q. Didn't she say that Dr. Sadler had told her the man's name 10 but that she didn't know the name from personal knowledge? 11 A. I thought the word was "identity," that she didn't know 12 the identity of the person. 13 Q. That wouldn't be the same as not knowing the name? 14 A. Wouldn't to me. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. So, if that's true -- 17 Q. There is no -- there's no -- 18 A. Pardon me. It's your question. 19 Q. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate that. 20 Do you have any evidence that refutes the proposition that 21 for a number of years as these papers were coming in, they were 22 being studied by The Contact Commission and The Forum? 23 A. No. I think that's pretty clear. 24 Q. Okay. As to the fact of questions being asked by Forum 25 members and Contact Commissioners, do you have any evidence to 00487 { 2:52:10pm} 01 refute the proposition that there were questions submitted by 02 Forum members that were later arranged and asked by contact 03 commissioners of the subject? 04 A. It's very clear the questions were asked by members of The 05 Forum. 06 Q. Okay. And I thought I understood you to testify this 07 morning that you thought that this was a book written like any 08 other book. Did I hear you make that statement? 09 A. You did. 10 Q. Okay. What do you base that on? 11 A. There was a man who wrote out a book. He wrote it out in 12 his own handwriting. Nobody saw him write it. And somebody 13 copied it over, typed it out, and it was published. And I 14 think part of that same explanation that I gave this morning 15 said it was my deep belief that this man was inspired to do so, 16 and that doesn't take away from the fact that it was a book 17 written by a person. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. In my mind, that's what I meant. 20 Q. Okay. But you're not telling the jury -- certainly you're 21 not telling the jury that this -- 22 MR. HILL: Judge, may I draw on the flip chart? 23 THE COURT: Sure. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Is that question withdrawn? 25 MR. HILL: Yes. 00488 { 2:52:10pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may I move so I can -- 03 THE COURT: You can. You cannot get in the jury box 04 with the jury, counsel. 05 MR. ABOWITZ: There's a line, Judge. I won't do 06 that. 07 MR. HILL: I'm sorry. I'll move this back a little 08 bit so you can see. 09 Q. (BY MR. HILL) You're not asking the jury to believe that 10 every -- that the garden-variety process of producing a work 11 that's 2000 pages long, assuming there are others, is through 12 this process of questions and answers going back and forth for 13 a number of years, are you? 14 A. Yes, I am. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I am denying that. 17 Q. You're denying that -- You're denying that that ever 18 happened? 19 A. No, I'm not denying that ever happened. I'm denying the 20 process part of it. 21 Q. Okay. Okay. 22 MR. HILL: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 23 This is Michael Foundation 134. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 25 No objection, Judge. 00489 { 2:52:10pm} 01 MR. HILL: We'll tender Michael Foundation 134. 02 THE COURT: It's admitted. 03 MR. HILL: Thank you, Judge. 04 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Will you identify Michael Foundation 05 exhibit 134. 06 A. This is a paper written by Dr. Sadler titled, 07 "Consideration of Some Criticisms of The Urantia Book." 08 Q. And will you turn to page 20. Directing your attention to 09 the final paragraph on the page. Here Dr. Sadler writes, "At 10 least, but not least, the technique of receiving The Urantia 11 Book in answer to questions was an entirely new and unique 12 method of imparting information on the part of superhuman 13 intelligences. The very book itself is original in origin and 14 unique in impartation." 15 Accepting your proposition as true, that this was not 16 superhuman intelligence flowing through an unconscious, 17 completely unaware individual, but was, instead, divinely 18 inspired, you take issue with the proposition that there was 19 still a question-and-answer process going on over these many 20 years? 21 A. No, I don't. 22 Q. Oh, you don't? You don't take issue with that part of the 23 process anyway? I'm sorry. I think I may have misunderstood 24 your previous answer. 25 A. Well, I can tell you what I thought you asked. But as to 00490 { 2:52:10pm} 01 the question you just asked, that's my answer. 02 Q. So no debating the fact that there was a question-and- 03 answer process? 04 A. No, no. 05 Q. Okay. Do you have -- Have you seen in the documents that 06 have been produced in this case the early copyright letters? 07 A. Yes, I have. 08 Q. And do you have any reason to doubt that in at least as 09 early as 1932 one or more of the contact commissioners began to 10 write letters inquiring about how to go about copyrighting 11 something that they were working on, to leave it generally? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 MR. HILL: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have an exhibit number, please? 16 MR. HILL: 133, Michael Foundation. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 18 THE COURT: Be admitted. 19 MR. HILL: Thank you, Judge. 20 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Yesterday, we saw a history of the Urantia 21 movement document on this screen, Mr. McMullan. Do you recall 22 that? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Do you recall the page on that document that said that 25 some of the first money to come in to help defray the cost of 00491 { 2:52:10pm} 01 the first publishing of The Urantia Book was received from the 02 arctic explorer, Hubert Wilkins? 03 A. Yes, I do. 04 Q. Do you believe that Michael Foundation exhibit 134 is a 05 letter from Sir Hubert Wilkins? 06 A. Yes, I do. 07 Q. Okay. And it appears that this letter was removed from 08 archived files at Ohio State University? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And it's dated November 1, 1955? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 MR. HILL: Can you scroll down a little bit more? 14 Can you highlight the paragraph that starts with, "The mass of 15 information." 16 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Do you believe that Hubert Wilkins was a 17 Forum member? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. Okay. He writes, "The mass of information of the book is 20 at first bewildering. To most of us, it came piece by piece 21 and was not so overwhelming." 22 Do you see that? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. That would suggest, wouldn't it, that the papers were, at 25 least insofar as Mr. Wilkins was seeing them, that the papers 00492 { 2:52:10pm} 01 were coming piece by piece? 02 A. That would be consistent with the story of the way the 03 first three parts were done that was in your exhibit yesterday. 04 Q. Do you take issue with the proposition -- 05 MR. HILL: I'm sorry, Bob. You can take that down. 06 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Do you take issue with the proposition that 07 Dr. Lena K. Sadler, Dr. William Sadler's wife, raised $20,000 08 by 1939 to help defray the cost of publication? 09 A. No, I don't. 10 Q. Okay. You have seen that in the documents of The Urantia 11 Foundation? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you take issue with the proposition that in 1941 14 contact commissioner Wilfred Kellogg entered into a contract 15 with Donnelley & Sons to arrange for the laying down of the 16 text of the Urantia Papers on nickel printing plates? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And do you take issue with the proposition that Bill 19 Hales, the first president of Urantia Foundation, and other 20 former members of The Forum and contact commissioners donated 21 money towards the initial publication of The Urantia Book? 22 A. No problem with that at all. 23 Q. And you've seen the letters in Urantia Foundation's 24 business records to that effect, either soliciting or 25 indicating that money has been provided? 00493 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I didn't see the letters about that original money but I 02 certainly have no question that it happened. 03 Q. Okay. And do you -- you don't take any issue with the 04 proposition that Urantia Foundation was formed in 1950? 05 A. No. 06 Q. And you don't take issue with the proposition that after 07 it was formed, contact commissioner Wilfred Kellogg assigned 08 his contract for the printing plates over to Urantia 09 Foundation? 10 A. No problem at all. 11 Q. Okay. And you don't have any evidence, do you, that 12 anyone involved in this process was compelled to do something 13 against his or her will? 14 A. Well, you know, it's very interesting. In this letter, it 15 would indicate that the patient was not aware of what was 16 happening. It's the paragraph above the one that you quoted 17 there. I could read what it says but it very definitely 18 implies that the man didn't know what was going on. 19 Q. But taking the facts as you view them, even if he was 20 unconscious in these sessions, he was conscious when he wrote 21 these papers; correct? 22 A. Well, I don't know -- the mind is a very deep thing, so 23 people can do things in their unconscious mind and it's still 24 coming out of their mind. 25 Q. Okay. 00494 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. They could be so -- if I -- you know, if someone painted a 02 painting in a trance, I don't know why they couldn't get a 03 copyright on the painting. So, in some way, saying it came out 04 of the man's mind whether he was in a trance or whether he 05 wasn't, to me it doesn't seem to make any difference. 06 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not there is any evidence 07 that Dr. Sadler intended to steal anything from this person? 08 A. I think there is. 09 Q. What evidence is that? 10 A. First of all, there's the fact he didn't get a written 11 assignment, and he's talking to these copyright people here, 12 and what's the first question the copyright lawyers are going 13 to ask? "If you didn't write the book, where's your 14 assignment?" 15 Q. Well, wait a second. You've read the opinion in the 16 Burton case; correct? 17 A. I have. 18 Q. And in the Burton case, isn't the holding of that case 19 that no written assignment was required? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And so you're basing an allegation of theft against a dead 22 professional who can't come into court to defend himself on the 23 fact that there may have been some handshake or implicit 24 agreement as opposed to a formal written document? 25 A. Well, that's just one point. There are four or five 00495 { 2:52:10pm} 01 things that, tied together, make the transaction extremely 02 suspicious, in my opinion. 03 Q. Okay. Do you have any evidence that the subject was 04 residing at 533 Diversey Parkway? 05 A. No. There's some evidence that he wasn't. 06 Q. Okay. Do you have any evidence that the subject attended 07 the contact sessions by something other than voluntary means? 08 A. If Emma Christensen did not know who the contact 09 personality was of her own knowledge, it raises a question of 10 whether he was present at all. It appears to me that 11 Dr. Sadler got these papers from the patient somehow and even 12 his fellow contact commissioner didn't even know the identity 13 of the person. That's what was sworn to by Urantia Foundation. 14 Q. Do you have any evidence that Dr. Sadler was a man of 15 dishonest character? 16 A. I didn't know Dr. Sadler. 17 Q. Yes. But have you seen any evidence? You've reviewed all 18 these documents -- 19 A. Well, I think that the evidence together with things we 20 haven't talked about in this case make it very suspicious on 21 how this thing came about in the first place. 22 Q. Any evidence -- Any extrinsic evidence, any evidence 23 outside of this process that you're aware of that suggests that 24 Dr. Sadler was a man of low moral character or a cheat? 25 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm going to object to the form, Your 00496 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Honor. What is the process we're talking about? 02 THE COURT: Restate your question, counselor. I 03 wasn't able to follow your question. 04 MR. HILL: Sure. 05 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Do you have any evidence to suggest, other 06 than what you've just said regarding the particular affairs 07 between Dr. Sadler and the subject, that Dr. Sadler was a -- 08 A. Yes, I do. 09 Q. -- was a cheat? 10 And what is that evidence? 11 A. He burned the patient's manuscript. There's simply no 12 earthly reason to burn a person's manuscript. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I have never heard of that being done before. 15 Q. And your conclusion from the fact that the manuscripts 16 were destroyed is that there must have been something 17 illegitimate about the process? 18 A. Combined with the fact that he waited 20 years to publish 19 it. He was called "the patient" by your side of things in 20 here. He was Dr. Sadler's patient. He's the patient of a 21 psychiatrist. He has that relationship. The psychiatrist has 22 no assignment from him, no written assignment, his papers are 23 burned, and secrecy is imposed on everybody concerned so that 24 the patient can't find out what's happening, and 20 years 25 passes before Dr. Sadler publishes these papers. I think 00497 { 2:52:10pm} 01 that's highly suspicious when you take it as a group. 02 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the nature of the work for a few 03 minutes. 04 The book does have a great deal of information, factual 05 information, in it, does it not? 06 A. It does. 07 Q. Okay. And you yourself have said in the inset page to 08 your Index to The Urantia Book, that The Urantia Book is a 09 unique repository of information ranging from all kinds of 10 different subjects. I'm paraphrasing, of course. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. You make that statement. 13 And you don't dispute the fact that there are numerous 14 topics covered in The Urantia Book? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. Okay. And does your belief that it is somehow inspired by 17 God affect at all your view of the book as a unified work? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Does not? Okay. 20 Do you think that Urantia Foundation's view, as reflected 21 in many of the letters and speeches that have been put up 22 previously in this case, do you think that their view of the 23 work is impacted at all by the perception that it is a 24 revelation? 25 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I will object as -- 00498 { 2:52:10pm} 01 THE COURT: Sustained. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: -- to what he thinks. 03 MR. HILL: Okay. 04 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Is it possible -- that's okay. I'll 05 withdraw that question. 06 You've described Jesus - A New Revelation as a -- or the 07 Jesus papers in The Urantia Book from which the Jesus - A New 08 Revelation work is taken as a work within a work; correct? 09 A. To a large extent. Not entirely. 10 Q. Okay. Would you turn to exhibit 36 in the black binders. 11 There's two just behind you there. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 13 THE COURT: Be admitted. 14 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I need the number. 15 MR. HILL: UF-36. 16 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. 17 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Are you there? 18 A. I am here. 19 Q. Go ahead and read the -- first of all, this was produced 20 by you in discovery to Urantia Foundation. Do you know what it 21 is? 22 A. Yes. I didn't write it but I know what it is. 23 Q. Okay. And I believe when I asked you about it earlier, 24 you said that there was nothing in the contents of the document 25 that you disagreed with? 00499 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I don't recall. I haven't read it for months and months 02 but I'll take it that if I said that before, that must be -- 03 that would be my same answer now. 04 Q. Okay. Do you agree with the first statement, "That Jesus 05 - A New Revelation is nothing less than a comprehensive 06 biography of Jesus, his entire life is covered, his childhood, 07 his adolescence, his years of preparation and his public 08 ministry up through the events of his crucifixion, resurrection 09 and ascension"? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. That sounds like a work in and of itself; would you agree? 12 A. Well, I described earlier how certain things in part IV 13 can only be understood in the context of Michael and Nebadon 14 and Melchizedek and thought adjusters and things. Still, there 15 are lines and lines within it tying back to The Urantia Book of 16 things that simply don't make sense without it. So -- but it's 17 definitely a work. 18 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off. 19 In Jesus - A New Revelation, in the inset preface page, 20 don't you write, "The life of Jesus stands alone"? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And -- 23 A. I think I did. May I get the book? 24 Q. Oh, absolutely. I think the way the statement reads is to 25 the effect that while the life of Jesus stands alone, it's 00500 { 2:52:10pm} 01 better appreciated in the full context of The Urantia Book. 02 A. That's correct. That's my view. 03 Q. Summary? 04 Now, you've also communicated to others, have you not, 05 that you believe, with very few exceptions, The Urantia Book 06 does, in fact, stand -- or flows quite well as a separate 07 work. Do you recall that testim- -- do you recall having made 08 those statements? 09 A. You mean part IV, is that what you meant? 10 Q. Yes. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may we start over with the 12 question, please? 13 THE COURT: Please. 14 MR. HILL: Yeah, let me just ask a better question. 15 Q. (BY MR. HILL) You've stated before on occasion that other 16 than paper 120 in part IV, which you left out of Jesus - A New 17 Revelation, you believe that from paper 121 through 196, the 18 part that is in Jesus - A New Revelation, that tells -- that 19 flows quite well as a separate work. 20 A. I believe it does. 21 Q. Yes. 22 There are a number of human sources that account for some 23 of the subject matter in The Urantia Book; isn't that true? 24 A. That appears to be the case. 25 Q. Yes. In fact, doesn't The Urantia Book itself even say in 00501 { 2:52:10pm} 01 places in the text that it is -- it is derived, at least in 02 part, from reference to 2000 human sources and 1000 human 03 concepts? 04 A. Yes, it does. 05 Q. Okay. And you've seen, have you not, some comparisons 06 between certain selections in The Urantia Book and certain 07 works from the early 1900s? 08 A. I've seen a number of those. 09 Q. Yes, you have. And tell the jury just a couple of those 10 sources, please. 11 A. One of them is a man named Henry Weyman who wrote a number 12 of books about religion. And the material from certain parts 13 in The Urantia Book is -- it's not exactly the same but it's so 14 close that you'd have to say it was a plagiarization. That 15 would be the word you would use. 16 Q. An abridgement, maybe? 17 A. People that love The Urantia Book wouldn't like to use 18 that word but that's kind of what it would amount to. And 19 there are a number of people that have studied it that have 20 identified 70 or 80 different works, and when you look at 21 certain parts of The Urantia Book you can see a clear 22 correspondence between that other work and -- which the patient 23 might have had access to -- and the material in The Urantia 24 Book. 25 Q. And you've looked at paper 160 in the book, which is the 00502 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Rodan paper; correct? 02 A. I don't think I've been through that correspondence but 03 I'm aware that's one that has heavy correspondence to. I think 04 that's the Wyman book. 05 A. Yes. Issues of Life. 06 But paper 160 also has a significant amount of quoting 07 from the New Testament, does it not? 08 A. I would need to look at paper 160 to be able to answer 09 that question. 10 Q. Sure. Do you have the hard back or soft-backed Urantia 11 Book up there? 12 MR. HILL: Could I have a moment, Your Honor? 13 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Sorry. It's a big book. 14 Look at page 1776, if you're not already there. This is 15 the Rodan paper that we've been referring to, paper 160? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. And you've already testified that you've seen or you've 18 heard that there's a correlation between certain portions of 19 this paper and the Issues of Life book by Henry Wyman? 20 A. I remember that it's Wyman or Weyman but I don't recall 21 the name of the book. I've never gone -- I've never done this 22 exercise -- 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. -- really to where I was paying much attention to it. 25 Q. Well, take a look at page 1776. At the bottom, on section 00503 { 2:52:10pm} 01 IV, The Enhanced Defense, do you see the quote four lines down, 02 "Happy are they who mourn," in quotation marks? 03 A. Yes, I do. 04 Q. You recognize that from the beatitudes? 05 A. Yes, I do. 06 Q. Looking on the next page over on page 1777, it says, 07 "Peace on earth and good will among men." 08 A. Yes, I see that. 09 Q. You recognize that from Luke, the book of Luke? 10 A. I recognize that from the times of Jesus' birth. Is it in 11 Luke? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. I believe it is, yes. 14 Q. Luke 2:14. 15 And dropping down to the Lures of Maturity section, three 16 lines down from that, you see the quote, "Man cannot live by 17 bread alone"? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And that's, of course, Matthew 4 -- Luke 4:4. 20 Do you recognize that to be a quote from the New 21 Testament? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 Q. So is it possible, based on some of the evidence that 24 we're talking about here and accepting your proposition as 25 true, that what happened is the subject fielded these questions 00504 { 2:52:10pm} 01 in these sessions and then went off looking for the best ways 02 to answer the questions, borrowing from human sources all along 03 the way and then coming back with a set of answers? 04 A. I'd have to address your question in parts. The session 05 thing is open to question because Emma Christensen said she 06 didn't know who the -- didn't know the identity of the subject, 07 and so it could be that Dr. Sadler somehow took these questions 08 and gave them to his patient. We don't know. But it's kind 09 of -- it's hard to understand. 10 Q. Okay. But -- 11 A. But if we can go -- 12 Q. -- would you concede it's possible? 13 A. -- to the second part of your question that the patient 14 wrote it based on drawing resources, is that what you're 15 saying? 16 Q. Well, I'm asking: Do you concede that it's at least a 17 possibility that what happened here, taking your proposition as 18 true, that this person was writing from inspiration and was 19 cognizant of what he was doing, that he understood the 20 questions when they were asked and went about the task of 21 trying to marshal the best facts and information that he could 22 from other human sources and then combined them in a unique way 23 and present them as answers to the questions? 24 A. I agree with all of that except that the role of the 25 questions is really a little unclear to me. But everything 00505 { 2:52:10pm} 01 else, I think, it's quite possible. 02 Q. Okay. It would be a fantastic coincidence, would it not, 03 if Dr. Sadler or the members of The Contact Commission and 04 Forum just happened to keep stumbling onto papers that were 05 responsive to questions that they were posing. That would be 06 coincidental, wouldn't it? 07 A. Well, I'm not saying there weren't questions. I've 08 already said that. I'm just saying that -- 09 Q. Well, were they answered? 10 A. -- how they -- 11 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I don't believe he let him 12 finish his answer. 13 THE COURT: Let him finish. 14 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Go ahead. 15 A. The thing that's not clear is how do you -- what happens 16 after these questions are asked, because it's the answering of 17 the questions that's really the main thing, and there's a 18 structure here. It's just inconceivable to me that it would be 19 the result -- the pure result of questions. There was 20 something in the mind of the author that contributed to this 21 entire structure. And while the questions would have -- could 22 certainly, as the history of the Urantia movement said, it 23 could amplify things, and remove ambiguities was another thing, 24 that's very different from saying that these questions were the 25 source of the artistic and unified structure that we find in 00506 { 2:52:10pm} 01 The Urantia Book and especially in The Life of Jesus which it's 02 not clear there was any questions involved at all. It seems 03 that that thing came-- just plopped down. I don't see there's 04 any evidence that there were any questions on the whole 05 business about part IV, if it came as a unit. 06 Q. So you're not aware of any questions about Jesus? 07 A. I'm not aware of any questions about anything. 08 Q. Okay. And what I'm asking is: Is it plausible, and let's 09 set aside part IV for a second, let's talk about the first 10 three parts -- but is it plausible that the subject fielded 11 questions and went about the task of marshaling information 12 from other human sources, combining it in an original way and 13 then bringing a paper back that was responsive to the last 14 group of questions asked? Is that possible? 15 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm going to object 16 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. We need to move 17 on, counselor. 18 MR. HILL: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. 19 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Let's talk about the domain names for a 20 second. 21 You registered in 1997, did you not, UrantiaBook.com, 22 TheUrantiaBook.org and Urantian.org? 23 A. I believe that was the year. Michael Foundation did two 24 of them and I did one of them. 25 Q. Yes. And one of those domains, TheUrantiaBook.org 00507 { 2:52:10pm} 01 registered by Michael Foundation, you permitted David Cantor to 02 use that domain and point it as a mirror on-line location for 03 The Fellowship's web site for a time; isn't that true? 04 A. Yes, that's correct. 05 Q. Okay. And when did that cease or is it still going on? 06 A. I'm not sure when it ceased but about -- I thought it had 07 ceased a long time ago and I called him about two or three 08 weeks ago just to say, "David, you know, you do have that thing 09 off, don't you?" And he said, "Well, it's complicated." 10 Anyway, at some point not too long ago, it was removed so 11 that it's completely gone now, but it was not gone as early as 12 I thought it was or that I intended it to be. 13 Q. Well, I mean, you voluntarily permitted Mr. Cantor to use 14 that domain name, did you not, as The Fellowship's web site? 15 A. It was prior to me knowing anybody ever cared about the 16 thing. 17 Q. Okay. But once you found out that somebody did care about 18 it -- 19 A. Then I talked to David Cantor and asked him to stop it, 20 and apparently he didn't do so entirely. He did something. I 21 really don't understand the mechanism on how these things 22 worked. When I checked with him recently, there was still some 23 traces of it or something that he got rid of that now are gone. 24 Q. Who did you register the domains through? Network 25 Solutions? 00508 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I think so. 02 Q. Network Solutions? 03 A. Well, I think it was. 04 Q. Okay. 05 A. I think at the time that was the only way you could 06 register names. 07 Q. I registered a couple a few years ago myself through 08 Network Solutions. In fact, recently I got a little notice 09 from them telling me that if I didn't pay them some money, they 10 were going to take my registrations and sell them to somebody 11 else. Have you gotten those kinds of letters -- 12 A. I have. 13 Q. -- over the last four years? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When you've gotten those letters with respect to these 16 three domain names, what have you done? Have you let them go 17 or renewed them? 18 A. No, I renewed them. 19 Q. You did renew them. When was the last time you renewed 20 one of these domains? 21 A. I have -- as far as I know, I renewed all of them when I 22 got the notices. 23 Q. Okay. Did you get some notices in May of this year? 24 A. I'm not sure. 25 Q. Okay. Well, is there -- 00509 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. But I'll stipulate I've renewed them when I got them, 02 whenever it was. 03 Q. Okay. And if you registered them in May of 1997, do you 04 know how long Network Solutions gives you the domain before 05 they threaten to take it back unless you pay them some more 06 money? 07 A. No, I don't. 08 Q. Okay. Is it more than a year? 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me. May I have clarification? 10 More than a year? I didn't get the context. 11 THE COURT: Repeat your question, counselor. 12 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Is it more than a year between the time 13 that Network Solutions comes back and -- 14 A. Uh-huh. It's my impression -- 15 Q. -- asks you to ante up? 16 A. -- that it depends how much you pay them in the first 17 place. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I think you can buy for, you know, a year or two years or 20 three years or something. Really, I don't know. 21 Q. How long did you buy the domains for back in '97? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Don't know if it was a year, five years? 24 A. I'm sorry. I just don't know. 25 Q. Okay. Is it conceivable that in the last two years you've 00510 { 2:52:10pm} 01 paid Network Solutions in order to keep one or more of these 02 domain names? 03 A. Yes, it is. 04 Q. Is it likely? 05 A. Probably, yeah, I would say. 06 Q. Likely with respect to all three of them? 07 A. I would say it's likely. 08 Q. Okay. And you've done that voluntarily, either on your 09 own behalf or on behalf of Michael Foundation, depending on -- 10 A. Yes, I have. 11 Q. And have you done that during this litigation? 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me. Are we talking about the 13 pendency of this litigation? 14 MR. HILL: Yes. 15 A. I think -- well, I've already said I'm not sure but I know 16 that when some things -- I have a number of domain names apart 17 from these, the ones that are at issue here because I just 18 enjoyed fooling around with them back when things started, so 19 I've renewed them. And I've probably renewed the ones at 20 question within the pendency of this litigation. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. But I don't have a -- you know, I'm not positive on it. 23 Q. I thought I understood your earlier testimony to be that 24 the Church of Christ Michael sort of ceased to exist after 25 1996; is that correct? 00511 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. Well, there's a physical structure just right up the 02 street here that was the physical church at 1200 North 03 Robinson, and that was the church and that no longer is in 04 the -- you know, that's not going any longer. 05 The Church of Christ Michael actually was something that 06 the pastor, Rob Crickett, who came over here, had, and he has 07 continued to use the Church of Christ Michael as a vehicle for 08 his ministry in Australia. 09 Q. Okay. 10 A. And sometimes I think maybe in the United States but I've 11 never had any -- 12 Q. Well, I'm just trying to get more to the point. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I don't believe the witness 14 had finished his answer. 15 THE COURT: Don't interrupt the witness, counselor. 16 MR. HILL: I'm sorry. I thought you were done. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm through. You were right. 18 MR. HILL: Thank you. 19 Q. (BY MR. HILL) When did you personally perceive that you 20 were out of the church creation business, for lack of a more 21 articulate expression? 22 A. Well, I'm not sure of the exact -- I get these years a 23 little mixed up. When Mr. Crickett left, then I viewed that I 24 had done what I could to get a local Urantia church going and 25 that that just obviously wasn't my calling to do that. Then as 00512 { 2:52:10pm} 01 far as a physical church with a pastor and a congregation and 02 Sunday schools and things like that, and I haven't made any 03 efforts in that direction since. 04 Q. Okay. Can you turn back -- your counsel showed you 05 Michael Foundation exhibit 92. Do you still have a copy up 06 there with you? 07 MR. HILL: Your Honor, may I approach? I have a 08 copy. 09 THE COURT: Sure. 10 THE WITNESS: Pardon me for not asking, Your Honor. 11 MR. HILL: Can you pull up Michael Foundation exhibit 12 92? 13 THE COURT: Is it already admitted? 14 MR. HILL: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. HILL: Can you bold the paragraph starting with, 17 "Nature of a composite work." 18 Q. (BY MR. HILL) This is a letter that was written on your 19 behalf to the trustees of Urantia Foundation by Mr. Plourde, I 20 believe? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And in this paragraph, Mr. Plourde says, "You refer in 23 your letter to the Maaherra case. Michael Foundation carefully 24 studied the evidence presented in that case before deciding to 25 publish Jesus - A New Revelation. An important issue to bear 00513 { 2:52:10pm} 01 in mind in determining the copyrightability of the material in 02 Jesus - A New Revelation is the nature of the copyright you 03 were left with as a result of the Ninth Circuit ruling. As you 04 know, the court found that you were the proprietor of a 05 composite work. By definition, the process of creating a 06 composite work presumes that the creator began with certain 07 building blocks consisting of original works by others. The 08 compiler of a composite work is not entitled, merely because he 09 compiled the composite work, to claim copyright as to the 10 original works by others, the building blocks with which the 11 compiler started." 12 Let's talk for a second about your -- is that consistent 13 with your understanding of -- 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor -- I'm sorry. Did you 15 finish? 16 MR. HILL: Yes. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm going to object to the question, 18 Your Honor. He's asking him if he has this legal understanding 19 of what all this is. 20 THE COURT: He asked him if it was consistent with it 21 and he can answer that, if he can. 22 A. I can answer it to a certain extent. I testified that my 23 belief at the time this was written was that the part IV had 24 come as a complete unit and it's been substantiated by 25 Mr. Keeler's testimony. So, in my view, that would be, as far 00514 { 2:52:10pm} 01 as what's in this book, it would be a unit which would be a 02 building block, as you can say, to the entire book. So, that 03 paragraph was written with respect to the material that is in 04 this book, to the best of my understanding. 05 Q. (BY MR. HILL) And it was also written based upon the 06 premise that the book was a revelation, which is what you 07 contended throughout the large part of the early part of this 08 case; isn't that true? 09 A. That's what I believed at the time. 10 Q. At the time that -- 11 A. I don't know what a revelation really is, so maybe I still 12 believe that. 13 Q. Okay. Do you recall writing a letter to Martin Myers at 14 Urantia Foundation in 1989 telling him that you have no 15 intention of causing Urantia Foundation any copyright problems 16 whatsoever? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Okay. And that letter, was that written before or after 19 the breakup between Urantia Foundation and Urantia Brotherhood? 20 A. My recollection is that it was written just before and it 21 was in conjunction with his request for me to sign that 22 agreement on the keyword index. 23 Q. And that's the agreement that we looked at this morning? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Obviously something regarding the copyright has changed in 00515 { 2:52:10pm} 01 your mind. 02 Do you take any responsibility for the fact that we're 03 here and we've reached this point in this case? 04 A. No. 05 Q. You take no responsibility? 06 A. Well, I take responsibility for writing this book. I 07 didn't write it -- I'm sorry. I didn't -- I meant to say for 08 publishing this book. It was not by accident that the last 76 09 papers of The Urantia Book are in here. So, in that sense, I 10 knew that -- I knew exactly what I was doing. Now, in terms 11 of -- did you mean the equity of why we're here? Is that what 12 you're talking about? 13 Q. I'm talking about how we've made it this far. 14 A. Well, we've made it this far because you people believe 15 you have a copyright in this book and I don't, and so we have a 16 difference of opinion. 17 Q. Okay. And you take no responsibility for the fact that 18 this litigation has advanced to the stage that it has; true? 19 A. I'm not permitted to say certain things about -- 20 Q. Okay. Okay. 21 A. -- that. 22 Q. That's fine. 23 A. And I don't know -- 24 THE WITNESS: Judge, I don't know how to answer the 25 question without -- 00516 { 2:52:10pm} 01 MR. HILL: That's okay. 02 I don't have anything else, Judge. 03 THE COURT: Next question? 04 MR. HILL: I don't have any other questions. Thank 05 you. 06 THE COURT: Redirect, if any? 07 MR. ABOWITZ: May I briefly approach the bench? 08 THE COURT: Sure. 09 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 10 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 11 THE COURT: The answer is still no. Is that what you 12 want to talk about? 13 MR. ABOWITZ: I have it written down here. 14 THE COURT: I don't think so. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: I would like the record to show that. 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: I would like the record to reflect that 18 counsel for Urantia Foundation's last question opened the door 19 to the material that the Court has excluded from evidence in 20 this case on a motion in limine. I believe the question 21 directly went to soliciting that information. The jury is now 22 left with a view by inference that this lawsuit and why we're 23 here is due to the reluctance of this witness, Mr. McMullan, 24 who is a party in this case, to be reasonable about these 25 matters. 00517 { 2:52:10pm} 01 THE COURT: Your objection is still -- and for that 02 reason, you want to offer into evidence of -- 03 MR. ABOWITZ: The compromise. 04 THE COURT: And that motion will be denied. 05 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 06 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 07 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 08 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 09 Q. Mr. McMullan, there's been conversation about evidence 10 that you saw in this case and that you reviewed that impacted 11 your view of certain matters that we've talked about, and you 12 talked about the King case. And I'd like, please -- 13 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you pull up exhibit 126, please, 14 which is already admitted into evidence. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I don't have it. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: It's not there? 17 Let me see if I can do this. 18 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Can you see that? 19 A. It needs to be shrunk a little bit. 20 Q. Wrong way. 21 A. Other way. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: Can everybody see that? 23 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me draw your attention to the 24 language beginning with the word "Thus." Would you read that 25 first sentence, please. 00518 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. "Thus, the person who performed the physical act of 02 writing the manuscript of The Urantia Book, for purposes of the 03 copyright law, is the author and owner of the common law 04 copyright therein, and had right to, and did" -- the word is 05 cut off but I presume it says, "transfer" -- 06 Q. Is that better? 07 A. Well, now it's cut off on the other side. 08 Q. Well, I'll switch it back and forth here. 09 A. -- "transfer that common law copyright to Dr. Sadler who 10 transferred it to Foundation." 11 Q. Okay. Is that one of the things that you relied upon? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And does that -- 14 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have exhibit 92, please. 15 Can you see that? 16 MR. PLOURDE: May I move this chart board? 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 A. Mr. Abowitz, I mistook your question. I did not have 19 those particular documents at the time this letter was written, 20 if that's what you mean. I rely on them -- 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Okay. When did you have these Burton 22 King documents? 23 A. I didn't -- we didn't get those until sometime in maybe 24 March of this year. 25 Q. All right. Well, my question was: You had a view at the 00519 { 2:52:10pm} 01 time this letter was written -- 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Can you scroll it up so we can get the 03 date? 04 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) -- November 5th, 1999, your views that 05 you held on that date changed sometime in the early part of the 06 year 2000? 07 A. Yes, they did. 08 Q. Based on all this other information that you got -- 09 A. That's correct. 10 Q. -- through the course of the case? 11 The information solicited in this letter by your lawyer, 12 Mr. Plourde, does it have anything to do or is it affected by 13 the change in your views? 14 A. Well, it would have been phrased a little differently but 15 the point would be exactly the same. 16 Q. The point being? 17 A. The point being that there's no valid copyright to the 18 material that's in this book, in Jesus - A New Revelation, 19 which was the subject of that letter. The reason is that they 20 didn't do anything. In that letter, the presumption was that 21 there were, according to my belief at the time, that it was 22 written -- delivered as a unit to Urantia Foundation and there 23 were no changes, no editing, no rearranging, no nothing. So if 24 it's a compilation copyright, there's nothing there to 25 protect. So it's basically the same thing except that the 00520 { 2:52:10pm} 01 patient wrote it, you know, instead of the spiritual beings. I 02 think the underlying point is really the same, that there's 03 no -- there's nothing that Urantia Foundation did in compiling 04 that that would entitle them to a copyright. 05 Q. Did you make any money publishing Jesus - A New 06 Revelation? 07 A. Heavens no. 08 Q. Did Michael Foundation? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Did anybody? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Now, this letter that you were shown that you wrote, The 13 Foundation, I believe it's -- 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Can you help me out, counsel? 35, is 15 that it? 16 MR. HILL: That he wrote? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: Yeah. 18 MR. HILL: That's one. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: May I see it, please? 20 MR. PLOURDE: We've got it. 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) What was the purpose of this letter? 22 A. The purpose of that letter was to -- well, -- that letter 23 was written to set forth sort of the spiritual reasons why it 24 would be improper for a group that says they believe in Jesus 25 and the teachings of this book to prevent other people from 00521 { 2:52:10pm} 01 getting the word out. 02 Q. Now, is this couched in the terms of the law that the 03 Court is going to give the jury? 04 A. No, no. That letter has the spiritual reasons about, you 05 know, let's look at what Jesus said and let's try to do what he 06 said. 07 Q. And your statements in there that you're going to do 08 everything within your spiritual power to see an end result, 09 does it include violating any order of this court or any other 10 court? 11 A. Absolutely not. 12 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that the Jesus papers, the 13 work of Jesus included in the Jesus - A New Revelation flows as 14 a work. What do you mean by that? 15 A. I mean that a person with the use of the index in the back 16 that helps with the terms that aren't defined, a person can 17 read this book and really get a lot out of it. If I hadn't 18 believed that, I never would have had it printed. 19 Q. And does that book lead a reader reasonably into the next 20 step, which would be to read The Urantia Book? 21 A. I think that's a reasonable conclusion for people. And if 22 they don't, then they're still better off. So, either way, if 23 you believe that this material has value, then they're better 24 having this than nothing; and then if they read the whole 25 Urantia Book, that's their choice. 00522 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. There was -- 02 A. It's designed to elicit that response. 03 Q. There was a discussion about The Urantia Foundation 04 refusing your attribution of them. Do you still refer to them 05 in that book? 06 A. No. I refer to The Urantia Book though. 07 Q. All right. 08 A. They were the only -- are the only people that are 09 publishing The Urantia Book. So if people want to buy The 10 Urantia Book, they're going to find The Urantia Foundation. 11 Q. Could you have published that book without saying anything 12 about The Urantia Book? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Would you have? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Well, let's briefly talk about the questions. 19 What is your position about the subject of the questions 20 that came up directed to the patient/contact person? 21 A. Well, from the evidence it seems clear that The Forum 22 group was presented with these papers. The papers -- the 23 patient wrote the papers. The patient wrote the papers. 24 That's obvious. It also seems pretty reasonable that they came 25 in installments. He wrote them a paper or a chapter at a time 00523 { 2:52:10pm} 01 or two at a time or whatever. In the case of this book, they 02 were written all at the same time. But they did not come all 03 at the same time. Dr. Sadler had a group called The Forum. He 04 asked this group to formulate questions concerning the material 05 that was read. And then it goes into mystery. So, there's not 06 any -- we ask a lot of questions in the course of depositions 07 and I've read other -- the depositions in the Maaherra case as 08 well and nobody seems to be able to make a correspondence 09 between a question that was asked and an answer that was 10 given. Nobody knows who asked the question, the order in which 11 the questions were asked, but there seems to be agreement that 12 they had some impact but there's just no way to say exactly 13 what it is. 14 So, that's all I know. 15 Q. You indicated in response to counsel's questioning about 16 whether or not Dr. Sadler had done something that was improper, 17 that you thought four or five things were suspicious. Could 18 you outline those for us, specify those for us, please. 19 A. Well, in the letter, which was shown up on the screen 20 there, he knocked out the part directly above it that would 21 have suggested what it was talking about in the Sir Hubert 22 Wilkins letter. 23 Q. And what is that letter, please? 24 A. Plaintiff's 133. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have that, please? We may not 00524 { 2:52:10pm} 01 have it. 02 Sir, may I trouble you for that so we don't hold up the 03 jury? 04 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) What portion of this letter are -- 05 A. The paragraph, "At present." 06 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you highlight that, please. 07 Can you read that? 08 THE WITNESS: Yes. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Can you extract that out of there, 10 please. 11 A. "At present, we are not telling" -- did you want me to 12 read that? 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Yes, please. 14 A. "At present, we are not telling many of the recipients of 15 the manner in which the information was received but I can tell 16 you for your own information that the text of the papers were 17 spoken by the revelators through a man in his sleep and who to 18 this day has no idea that he was the medium. Learning that 19 this man was talking in his sleep, it was arranged to have a 20 stenographer record the statements and soon it was possible for 21 those concerned not only to listen and record, but to also talk 22 with the revelators as you and I might talk." 23 Now, a part of that is inconsistent with everything else. 24 You know, the part about the -- well, maybe it's not. They're 25 saying that part of it came verbally, but all the evidence is 00525 { 2:52:10pm} 01 that what were the papers actually came written, but the thing 02 that's intriguing about this letter is that it says, "The man 03 to this day has no idea he was the medium." I don't know. I 04 mean, you know, you wonder, you have a psychiatrist and you 05 have a patient and you just wonder what this relationship is. 06 What was going on? I think -- I would think a medical 07 professional would have a duty toward the -- toward his patient 08 which would be a very high duty, a fiduciary duty. 09 And here, he took what the patient wrote, he didn't pay 10 anything, he never revealed the name. When he got his 11 manuscript, after they typed it out, he burned the papers. He 12 swore everybody to secrecy that was involved in the process on 13 his end, and then he starts a foundation and they basically 14 give it to themselves. The people that are on this Contact 15 Commission, who are not the patient, end up signing this thing 16 over, but it's like the people that -- you know, it's like me 17 signing over your car to somebody else; I don't have the right 18 to sign it over because I didn't write it, the patient wrote 19 it. Then they wait 20 years, you know, when there's not even 20 any editing involved. I just think when you take all that 21 together, and then when they register the copyright they don't 22 give any credit to the person who actually wrote it. They say 23 it's -- they say they wrote it themselves. I think, all in 24 all, it just doesn't smell good. It's not a plausible story to 25 me. 00526 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. And when did you first determine that? 02 A. Well, I've had occasion to think about this a great deal 03 in the course of this last few months, and the turning point in 04 this analysis for me was when I figured out for the first time 05 that this whole book was in the handwriting of one individual. 06 And, so, then I look at the other evidence and nobody knows 07 anything. 08 The patient -- there's nothing from the standpoint of the 09 patient. Everything you hear is from the standpoint of 10 Dr. Sadler and those associated with him, but there's 11 nothing -- in other words, from the group that stands to 12 benefit and control this revelation, there's absolutely nothing 13 from the standpoint of this patient, his family. I mean, we 14 truly don't even know if he was not institutionalized. You 15 know, they did things, they still do things like this. 16 How do we know that he knew that all this was going on? 17 The only way we -- all we know is that Dr. Sadler said it was 18 okay, but he's the one on the side that's getting the profit 19 from this thing. So, there's just simply no way to know. I 20 didn't know Dr. Sadler myself, but when you look at these -- 21 these facts together to me paint an extremely suspicious story 22 of the origin of this book. 23 Q. Does that impact now your view or does it impact your view 24 of that book itself now, if the origins are questionable? 25 A. No. If somebody had stolen some beautiful concerto by 00527 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Bach or Bethoven, it wouldn't make the piece of music any less 02 beautiful. 03 Q. Without divulging what you were told not to divulge, you 04 were asked whether you have responsibility in this situation. 05 You indicated that your responsibility was you published Jesus 06 - A New Revelation. When you published that, did you 07 anticipate that you would get a lawsuit, be involved in a 08 lawsuit? 09 A. No, I did not. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. That's all I have, Your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: Take a recess? 13 MR. HILL: Yes, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Are you concluded with this witness or do 15 you have some additional? 16 MR. HILL: Brief. 17 THE COURT: Why don't we go ahead and do that and 18 then we'll take a recess, counselor. 19 MR. HILL: Okay. 20 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. HILL: 22 Q. Mr. McMullan, the book does say papers; each of the papers 23 says papers and not chapters in the book itself; isn't that 24 correct? 25 A. That's correct. 00528 { 2:52:10pm} 01 Q. Okay. And in discussing the letter that was put up from 02 Sir Hubert Wilkins, do you have any information that Sir Hubert 03 Wilkins was on The Contact Commission? 04 A. No. 05 Q. I believe you testified before that your understanding was 06 that he was a member of The Forum? 07 A. Well, I read that it was -- your people testified that it 08 was The Forum members who contributed, and it said that he gave 09 the first contribution of the $1,000, and so I deduced from 10 that that he must have been a member of The Forum. 11 Q. Okay. Are you trying to have it both ways here? Are you 12 trying to say that this person was totally unconscious in these 13 sessions but then when he left the sessions he was working from 14 divine inspiration as he went to the Bible and Wyman's work and 15 Plato and everything else? Are you trying to have it both ways 16 there? 17 A. I don't know how it worked. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I really don't, Mr. Hill. And I don't think anybody else 20 does. All we can do is look at these -- there are just a few 21 facts and we can look at them and try to figure out what's the 22 most plausible scenario. 23 Q. Okay. You said that Dr. Sadler is the one getting the 24 profit out of this thing. Have you seen any evidence that 25 Dr. Sadler made any money as a result of this? 00529 { 2:52:10pm} 01 A. I didn't mean money. 02 Q. Oh, okay. Okay. And if protecting the anonymity of the 03 patient subject, as you've referred to this person, was 04 actually the motive for not listing him on the copyright 05 registration certificate, would your contention still be that 06 it was ill-motivated? 07 A. If he had -- If he had had the ability to get an 08 assignment, in my opinion, given the fact that he's a physician 09 and this man is his patient, he would at least have gotten a 10 piece of paper and stuck it in a safe somewhere to say, you 11 know, Mr. Jim Jones, or whoever he is, agrees with everything 12 that's happening and wants Dr. Sadler and knows through him to 13 publish this work. I think it's really odd, knowing that he 14 was a physician and knowing the relationship, that he didn't -- 15 and knowing that he had copyright lawyers involved in it, that 16 he would not have gone -- at least taken the precaution of 17 getting something that nobody else had to see except for him 18 and stick it in a safe somewhere. And all the evidence -- 19 because he didn't do that, it's just -- it just smells to me. 20 MR. HILL: I don't have any other questions, Judge. 21 Thank you. 22 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 23 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be recessed 24 for 15 minutes. Be back in the jury box in 15 minutes. 25 Remember my previous admonition. 00530 { 2:52:35pm} 01 Court is in recess. 02 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 03 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 04 THE JURY:) 05 THE COURT: Be seated. 06 Do you have any additional witnesses? 07 MR. ABOWITZ: I do. 08 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: I'd like to call Ross Plourde posing 10 as Scott M. Forsythe. 11 THE COURT: Be seated, counselor. We don't need to 12 swear counsel. You're just going to be reading depositions, 13 aren't you? 14 MR. PLOURDE: Yes, sir. 15 THE COURT: Go ahead. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you like to make some comment to 17 the jury, Judge? 18 THE COURT: Let me explain to the jury. 19 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the rules and procedures 20 in federal court allow testimony to be given by someone in the 21 form of a deposition. That's sworn statements taken by this 22 person outside the courtroom but the procedures do allow the 23 questions and answers to be read. 24 Who is the deposition, Mr. Plourde? 25 MR. PLOURDE: Scott Forsythe. 00531 { 3:20:38pm} 01 THE COURT: And Mr. Plourde will be playing the role 02 of Scott Forsythe. 03 And who was the questioner? Was it Mr. Abowitz? 04 MR. PLOURDE: No, it was actually Joe Lewis, I 05 believe. 06 THE COURT: Okay. These two people are different 07 from the questioner and answerer but those questions and 08 answers were given. You're not to discount or disregard this 09 simply because it doesn't come to you live but in the form of a 10 deposition. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: May I check pagination here? 12 THE COURT: Sure. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: If it please the Court, my reading of 14 this deposition includes the designations not only of the 15 plaintiff but the defendant. 16 THE COURT: Pardon? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: My reading of the deposition and the -- 18 the questions and the answers that are going to be presented 19 here include not only the designations of the plaintiff but 20 also the designations of the defendant. 21 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect. Go ahead. 22 (DEPOSITION EXCERPTS OF SCOTT FORSYTHE WERE READ TO THE 23 JURY, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN 24 COURT:) 25 MR. ABOWITZ: That concludes the presentation of 00532 { 3:44:29pm} 01 Mr. Forsythe's deposition and, with that, the plaintiff rests, 02 Your Honor. 03 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Hill? 04 MR. HILL: We call Gard Jameson, Your Honor. 05 THE COURT: Come right up here, if you will, please, 06 and raise your right hand and be sworn. 07 (WITNESS SWORN) 08 FRANK GARD JAMESON, JR. 09 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 10 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 11 THE COURT: If you will, be seated here and speak 12 into the microphone and I'll ask you to state your full name 13 and spell your last name for the jury and the Court, please. 14 THE WITNESS: Full name is Frank Gard Jameson, Jr. 15 Last name is J-A-M-E-S-O-N. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Hill? 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. HILL: 19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jameson. How are you? 20 A. Good. 21 Q. Good. 22 Would you tell the jury a little bit about yourself by way 23 of background. 24 A. I live in Boulder City, Nevada. I'm married. My wife, 25 Florence, she's a physician. I have two children: Michael, 00533 { 3:46:24pm} 01 who's 11, and Julia, who is going to be 10 tomorrow. 02 Q. And what about your professional background? 03 A. I'm a certified public accountant and a certified 04 financial planner. I work for a large CPA firm in Las Vegas, 05 Nevada. I've been with them for about 15 years. 06 And I'm also teaching philosophy at the University of 07 Nevada, Las Vegas. 08 Q. What topics do you teach? 09 A. I teach western and eastern philosophy and comparative 10 religion. 11 Q. Okay. And do you serve on any boards of any public 12 service organizations or nonprofits? 13 A. I serve on a few. I serve as a director on the Nevada 14 Community Foundation. I serve on the board of the National 15 Conference for Community and Justice which used to be called 16 the National Conference for Christians and Jews. I serve on 17 the Southern Nevada Interfaith Council. I serve on the North 18 American Interfaith Network Board. I also serve on a Museum of 19 Natural History in Southern California called the Raymond M. 20 Alf Museum of Life. And on a privately-held company by the 21 name of Glen-Air, Inc. in Glendale, California. 22 Q. Okay. And in addition to that, we've heard some testimony 23 already that you are a trustee of Urantia Foundation; is that 24 correct? 25 A. Yes, sir. 00534 { 3:47:49pm} 01 Q. Do you attend church in Nevada? 02 A. I attend our Methodist Church in Boulder City, Nevada. 03 Q. And how long have you been attending that church? 04 A. We've been members there since 1994. 05 Q. When did you first read The Urantia Book? 06 A. I first got a copy -- I was attending college at Stanford 07 University and I picked up a copy in the spring of 1972. 08 Q. At some point, did you begin to interact with other 09 readers of The Urantia Book? 10 A. Pretty much within about a month or two I was attending a 11 study group in Berkeley, California. And I went to my first 12 conference in 1973. 13 Q. And at some point did you begin to participate in the 14 activities of an organization known as Urantia Brotherhood? 15 A. Yes. I became a member at large of The Urantia 16 Brotherhood in 1973. 17 Q. During your interaction with The Urantia Brotherhood, did 18 you come to know Harry McMullan, III? 19 A. Yes. Harry was in the Berkeley area while I was there and 20 he worked with a group called the Family of God Foundation. 21 Q. I want to back up to one thing that you said. You 22 mentioned your involvement in several organizations affiliated 23 with interfaith. Could you tell the jury what interfaith is? 24 A. The interfaith movement is basically an aggregation of 25 different faith traditions that have come together around what 00535 { 3:49:35pm} 01 are called interfaith councils. The North American Interfaith 02 Network is a network of about 70 interfaith councils around 03 North America, Canada, as well as Mexico. And on those 04 councils, different faith communities are represented and the 05 motivation is basically to build bridges of understanding and 06 cooperation between faith traditions. 07 Q. During your experiences with The Urantia Brotherhood, did 08 you also come to know an individual named Mo Seigel? 09 A. Yes. I believe I met Mo sometime in the '70s, maybe 1976 10 in Chicago at a conference. 11 Q. And at some point -- actually, how long were you involved 12 with Urantia Brotherhood? 13 A. Well, as I say, I became a member at large in 1973 and 14 then we formed a society in the Bay area called the San 15 Francisco Bay Area Society which was a society of The Urantia 16 Brotherhood. I believe that was 1978 or '79. And I'm still a 17 member of the Urantia Fellowship as well as of the 18 International Urantia Association, so I still consider myself 19 to be a member. 20 Q. So you're still involved with the activities of The 21 Fellowship even now? 22 A. Very much. 23 Q. And have you held leadership positions in The Fellowship? 24 A. Yes. I was elected onto the general council in 1988 and 25 became a member of the executive committee and chaired their 00536 { 3:51:12pm} 01 finance committee in 1989, and then became -- subsequently 02 chaired what's called the fraternal relations committee which 03 is an interfaith kind of committee. 04 Q. At some point we've heard some testimony that in 1989 05 Urantia Brotherhood and Urantia Foundation split, for lack of a 06 better word. Is that your understanding, your recollection? 07 A. Yes. In 1989 there was a split between what was called 08 The Urantia Brotherhood and The Urantia Foundation. 09 Q. Would you tell the jury a little bit about the 10 circumstances that led up to that as you recall them. 11 A. Well, there was a fair amount of antagonism between 12 Urantia Foundation and Urantia Brotherhood. One of the 13 trustees who was president, Martin Myers, was a very angry kind 14 of fellow and he actually had dossiers on people who I knew to 15 be pretty reasonable and nice people. And at one point I was 16 with him and he was jumping up and down screaming how evil this 17 particular person was and I just knew this person was not that 18 way. And so, as I say, there was this antagonism between 19 Martin Myers and the then Urantia Brotherhood and that 20 antagonism grew. It really started somewhere in the mid '80s 21 and it grew to a breaking point in 1989 when we received a 22 letter, I think it was the fall of 1989, evicting us from The 23 Foundation's offices and delicensing us, which would be 24 basically taking away our ability to use the marks. 25 Q. And that includes the Urantia and Urantian trademarks? 00537 { 3:52:55pm} 01 THE COURT: I can't hear you, counsel. 02 Q. (BY MR. HILL) That includes the Urantia and Urantian 03 trademarks of Urantia Foundation? 04 A. Yes, sir. 05 Q. And would you describe how that breakup affected you 06 personally. 07 A. Well, I was very distraught. Teaching comparative 08 religion and doing some of the work that I do, I like putting 09 people together and not seeing them split apart, so it was very 10 disturbing to me because I had friends on both sides of the 11 equation. So, I did what I could to try to patch things up but 12 the forces that were in existence at that time were much larger 13 than I so there wasn't much to be done, so the split did occur 14 and -- 15 Q. Do you know a man named Richard Keeler? 16 A. Yes. Richard is godfather of our children. 17 Q. And it was about that time, was it not, that Mr. Keeler 18 became a trustee for Urantia Foundation? 19 A. Shortly after the split, I believe. There were, I think, 20 three trustees who we were kind of pinning our hopes would sort 21 of stem the tide of the behavior of The Urantia Foundation. 22 They resigned, and Richard, I think, became one of the new 23 trustees. 24 Q. Okay. And what if anything are you aware of that 25 Mr. Keeler did in connection with the breakup of Urantia 00538 { 3:54:19pm} 01 Foundation and Urantia Brotherhood? 02 A. Well, in my opinion, Richard attempted to be something of 03 a peacemaker in the process. In fact, right after the split 04 occurred, at personal expense, he went around I think to 05 virtually everybody who was on the general council, he flew all 06 over the country and sat down with each of us, and I remember 07 that day in my office he came to me and he said, "You know, if 08 you could just be patient, I think we can work this out within 09 Urantia Foundation." He recognized that there was perhaps an 10 issue with Martin Myers and his psychology and he just asked me 11 amongst the other people who were part of the executive 12 committee and the general council to be patient with the 13 process. 14 However, because of the split, there was not only 15 antagonism from the part of The Urantia Foundation, there was 16 extreme antagonism on the part of several members of the 17 executive committee toward Urantia Foundation. In fact, I 18 would say there was kind of a demonization of Urantia 19 Foundation. So, as a result of that, all communications kind 20 of collapsed. 21 Q. And you've already testified that The Urantia Brotherhood 22 reconstituted itself as The Fellowship; correct? 23 A. Originally, the name was the Fifth Epochal Fellowship and 24 then subsequently we changed our name to The Fellowship. 25 Q. Okay. While on The Fellowship, did you -- you served in a 00539 { 3:55:48pm} 01 leadership position? 02 A. Yes. As I mentioned before, I was chair of the fraternal 03 relations committee which is an interfaith committee. 04 Q. So that continued even after The Urantia Brotherhood 05 reconstituted itself? 06 A. Yes, sir. 07 Q. Okay. And did you serve with Mr. McMullan on the 08 executive committee of The Fellowship? 09 A. Yes. He was on the executive committee and I believe he 10 was either finance chair or treasurer of the organization. 11 Q. And during the course of working with Mr. McMullan in The 12 Fellowship, would you say you became friendly with him? 13 A. Well, I've known Harry since the early '70s and I don't 14 know how he feels about me but I consider him to be one of my 15 best friends. 16 Q. During your time as an executive committee member of The 17 Fellowship, did you go to out-of-town conferences? 18 A. We went to a lot of out-of-town conferences. Whenever we 19 went to Chicago and had our executive committee meetings, for 20 the most part Harry and I would room together. 21 Q. You even relayed a little personal anecdote to me out in 22 the hall that Mr. McMullan dated your sister. 23 A. Well, he had an interest in my younger sister Mary, and I 24 think there was at least one date. 25 Q. Tell me whether or not you recall a time when you and 00540 { 3:57:13pm} 01 Mr. McMullan worked on a project to develop a computerized 02 folio index to The Urantia Book. 03 A. While I was in Las Vegas, one of my clients was party to a 04 company in Utah that was developing a program called Folio 05 Views which is a program which allows you to search a CD. You 06 can put a word in like "love" and it will pull up every passage 07 in The Urantia Book related to love, and it was very exciting 08 to me. Becoming aware of the technology, I related it to Harry 09 and Harry agreed to be, if you will, kind of a 50-50 partner to 10 finance this project. So we produced a Folio Views of The 11 Urantia Book. 12 Q. At some point, did there come a time when that project was 13 donated to Urantia Foundation? 14 A. Yeah. I forget exactly the sequence of events but at some 15 point I think I told Richard about it and then I subsequently 16 got a letter asking for an assignment of all rights to the 17 Folio Views program and I signed that over, I signed my portion 18 over to Urantia Foundation. 19 Q. Okay. 20 MR. HILL: Bob, can you pull up Urantia Foundation 21 exhibit 50? 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One second, Steve. 23 Q. (BY MR. HILL) If you can't see it on this screen, there's 24 a monitor right behind you there. You can turn it on and see 25 it there, if it's not on already. 00541 { 3:59:26pm} 01 A. Oh, okay. There. I just got a pair of progressive 02 glasses, so I'm getting to that age. 03 Q. I see. 04 Directing your attention to the first whereas clause where 05 it says, "Whereas, Urantia Foundation is the owner of all 06 right, title and interest in and to the copyright in a book 07 entitled The Urantia Book." 08 Do you recall whether or not that kind of language was in 09 the form that you were asked to sign by Urantia Foundation? 10 A. That looks like a replica of what I signed over to Urantia 11 Foundation. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not -- by the way, when was 13 this exactly that you signed this agreement? 14 A. It was 1991, I believe. 15 Q. And do you know whether or not Mr. McMullan was asked to 16 sign a similar agreement? 17 A. He was. As I said, when the split occurred, there was 18 several people who were very antagonistic towards Urantia 19 Foundation, and, in fact, kind of demonized Urantia 20 Foundation. Harry said he would never sign any document 21 assigning anything over to Urantia Foundation. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 MR. HILL: You can take it down, Bob. 24 Q. (BY MR. HILL) While you were an executive with The 25 Fellowship, did Mr. McMullan ever suggest that The Fellowship 00542 { 4:00:41pm} 01 should move its headquarters from Chicago to Oklahoma City? 02 A. Yeah, there was a period in the early '90s, maybe '93, 03 that Harry indicated he felt it would be much more efficient to 04 have the headquarters of The Fellowship be located in Oklahoma 05 City at his offices. 06 Q. At some point in the early '90's, did you learn of the 07 existence of some copyright infringement litigation between 08 Urantia Foundation and a woman named Kristen Maaherra? 09 A. Yes, everybody in the movement was aware of that lawsuit. 10 Q. And did you ever hear Mr. McMullan say anything about that 11 particular litigation? 12 A. That litigation was one of the most important things in 13 Harry's mind and he frequently talked about the Maaherra case. 14 Q. And when he talked about the Maaherra case, what kinds of 15 things would he tell you? 16 A. Well, he felt that Kristen would prevail in that case. He 17 felt quite certain that she would prevail in that case and he 18 actually helped to finance the case through his charitable 19 foundation called Asoka Foundation. 20 Q. At some point during that Maaherra case, did The 21 Fellowship learn of a decision at the trial court level 22 regarding Urantia Foundation's copyright? 23 A. Yes. In early '95, a decision was handed down by Judge 24 Urbom that invalidated the copyright. 25 Q. And do you know whether or not Urantia Foundation appealed 00543 { 4:02:22pm} 01 from that decision? 02 A. Yes, they did appeal. 03 Q. And do you know what the result of that appeal was? 04 A. The Ninth Circuit upheld the copyright. 05 Q. And going back to the time when you learned that 06 Judge Urbom had ruled that the copyright was not valid, what 07 was the reaction among the executives of The Fellowship? 08 A. Well, there was a feeling of elation amongst several of 09 them. In fact, there had been a book in preparation in 10 anticipation of the invalidation of the copyright that Harry 11 was responsible for. He had his secretaries proofreading it 12 and getting it ready and as soon as that decision came down, 13 there was a decision to move post haste to get the book 14 published. 15 Q. And did Mr. McMullan ever say anything to the leadership 16 of The Fellowship about the odds of Ms. Maaherra succeeding on 17 the appeal? 18 A. Well, again, he felt 100 percent certain she would win, 19 which she did, and he felt that the appeal would lose, and that 20 the invalidation of the copyright would prevail. 21 Q. In connection with that, did Mr. McMullan ever discuss 22 whether or not The Fellowship should get involved in the 23 Maaherra appeal? 24 A. Yes, there was several members of the executive committee 25 who felt that we should file some kind of legal brief in 00544 { 4:03:54pm} 01 support of Kristen's position. It's known as an amicus brief, 02 a friend-of-the-court brief. 03 Q. Did The Fellowship, in fact, file a brief on behalf of 04 Ms. Maaherra's position? 05 A. In, gosh, I think it's the winter of '96 we had a meeting 06 in San Francisco, our mid-year meeting, and there was a heated 07 debate that I recall, and it was split about 50-50, but the 08 people that were voting to file this legal brief in support of 09 Kristen's case won by one or two votes. 10 Q. And at some point The Fellowship became aware of the end 11 result of that appeal; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did you have the opportunity to observe Mr. McMullan's 14 reaction to the news that the copyright had been restored? 15 A. As I say, I mean, Harry, for whatever reason, felt that 16 The Urantia Foundation was an evil institution and that the 17 copyright needed to be invalidated. So, upon the upholding of 18 the copyright, Harry was prepared to go back to court to 19 invalidate it. 20 Q. In the black binders that are just off your right shoulder 21 there, can you find the exhibit that is marked Urantia 22 Foundation Exhibit 33. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Directing your attention to the lower of the two e-mails 25 on that e-mail trail, do you recall receiving an e-mail stating 00545 { 4:05:43pm} 01 words to the effect of those that are stated on exhibit 33? 02 A. Yes, sir. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: It's okay, Judge. No objection. 04 THE COURT: No objection? 05 MR. HILL: No objection? 06 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 07 MR. HILL: Okay. Great. 08 THE COURT: Be admitted. 09 MR. HILL: We'll ask that exhibit 33 be pulled up. 10 Can you go down to the middle portion, beginning with, "Harry 11 McMullan wrote"? A little bit lower. Four lines up from the 12 bottom, Bob. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Oh, okay. 14 MR. HILL: There you go. 15 Q. (BY MR. HILL) Would you go ahead and read what -- first 16 of all, did you receive this as a member of the executive 17 committee? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Okay. Would you go ahead and read what Mr. McMullan wrote 20 to you. 21 A. It says, "Dear friends, With the Ninth Circuit's denial of 22 Maaherra's petition for rehearing, I expect soon to be involved 23 in what will likely be protracted litigation with Urantia 24 Foundation. Based on the facts of record and despite the 25 hurdle of the Ninth Circuit opinion, my attorneys are convinced 00546 { 4:06:52pm} 01 that the Ninth Circuit's ruling can be overturned. I regard 02 freeing The Urantia Book from the control of Urantia Foundation 03 not only to be vital to the progress of the revelation on the 04 earth during our lifetime, but to the long-term survival of The 05 Fellowship as an entity distinguishable from IUA." 06 Q. Just for the jury's benefit, remind us what IUA is. 07 A. IUA is an acronym for the International Urantia 08 Association which was created after the split occurred. 09 Urantia Foundation was trying to find out where its friends 10 were and so another social body was created called the IUA. 11 And the people who were supporting the copyright became members 12 of the IUA in support of Urantia Foundation. 13 Q. In the immediate aftermath of the Maaherra decision on 14 appeal, how would you characterize the relationship between 15 Urantia Foundation and The Fellowship? 16 A. After the appeal? 17 Q. After the -- yes, after the appeal became knowledge -- 18 public knowledge. 19 A. Well, again, there was quite a bit of antagonism between 20 the two entities and there was very little communication. In 21 fact, I remember in our executive committee meetings, folks 22 saying, "Why do we have to keep talking about Urantia 23 Foundation? They're not part of our decision-making process." 24 Q. Was there a sense of rivalry between the two organizations 25 in 1997? 00547 { 4:08:30pm} 01 A. Well, when The Fellowship had its own printed copy of The 02 Urantia Book, there was certainly a sense of competition and a 03 feeling that The Fellowship could do a much better job at 04 distributing The Urantia Book than The Urantia Foundation. 05 Q. That went on from what year to what year? 06 A. Well, it went on until the copyright was upheld by the 07 Ninth Circuit in '97, I believe. 08 Q. So from about '95 to '97 The Fellowship was printing the 09 book? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And what happened as a result of the outcome of the appeal 12 in Urantia Foundation's favor? 13 A. Well, I'm not an attorney but apparently if you do 14 something like that during an interim period where it's in the 15 court of appeals, you can be found financially liable for 16 having printed a copyrighted book. So there was quite a bit of 17 concern amongst the executive committee as to our financial 18 liability for having printed the book, and so there was a 19 desire to get together with Urantia Foundation and try to 20 negotiate some kind of a compromised settlement. 21 Q. And was that successful? 22 A. Yes, we felt it was very successful. 23 Q. And as a result of those negotiations between Urantia 24 Foundation and The Fellowship, was litigation avoided? 25 A. Litigation was avoided. 00548 { 4:09:53pm} 01 Q. And tell us how you came to be a trustee of Urantia 02 Foundation. 03 A. In the fall of 1997, two trustees resigned, Pat Mundelius 04 and Tom Burns, and there is a clause in our trust agreement 05 that says that those positions must be filled within a 90-day 06 period. 07 In January of '98, Richard Keeler called me and asked if I 08 would consider becoming a trustee. We had our conversation. 09 The first time he asked, I said no, because I was comfortable 10 with my routine and what I was doing with Interfaith. And so 11 he came back again and asked me again, "Would you reconsider? 12 It would be very important to Urantia Foundation for you to 13 consider becoming a trustee." In fact, he filled in the 14 details. He said, "The three of us who are now trustees got 15 together and we decided this would be an opportune time to try 16 to heal the rift that occurred between The Fellowship and 17 Urantia Foundation." And he said, "By having you as a trustee, 18 we hope that this will be, if you will, a peacemaking effort on 19 our behalf toward The Fellowship and begin to mend the sense of 20 rivalry or the division that had occurred." 21 So, I was the chair of fraternal relations and the object 22 of fraternal relations is to try to bring peace and cooperation 23 and understanding. So, as I got to thinking and praying about 24 it, I realized, well, I think that's a natural extension of the 25 position I'm now holding, therefore I felt compelled to agree 00549 { 4:11:45pm} 01 and then I became a trustee. 02 Q. Now, going back to the time when you were contemplating 03 making this decision, did you perceive Urantia Foundation to be 04 a perfect organization? 05 A. No. In 1989, when the split occurred, I had had, as I 06 said earlier, my interactions with Martin Myers and I felt very 07 comfortable with this man at the helm of Urantia Foundation and 08 I felt that the trust that he held at Urantia Foundation was 09 very important in terms of publishing and distributing the 10 book, and there were some policies at Urantia Foundation in 11 terms of distribution where some of the channels of 12 distribution had been shut down. In fact, there were some 13 people within The Fellowship and other folks who basically 14 could not get hold of a book. They wouldn't be sold a book 15 because Martin Myers said, "Don't you dare sell books to that 16 person or that person." 17 So, no, Urantia Foundation, like any organization, had its 18 wars. In 1993/'94, I decided though to venture out and I went 19 to a conference that Urantia Foundation was holding in 20 Nashville, Tennessee to sort of see what was going on because 21 there had been a rupture in communications and we really didn't 22 know what was going on at Urantia Foundation, and so I went to 23 Nashville as kind of a pilgrimage and I met many friends there 24 and saw Richard and the current trustees and became familiar 25 with the translation work that they were doing, the 00550 { 4:13:12pm} 01 distribution work that they were doing, and became very 02 favorably impressed and felt even more the need to try to rift 03 the division that had occurred -- to patch the division that 04 had occurred. 05 Q. Just incidentally, we've heard a lot of testimony in this 06 case about Mr. Myers. What happened to Mr. Myers, to the best 07 of your understanding, in terms of his relationship with 08 Urantia Foundation? 09 A. Well, as Richard had suggested when he went around and met 10 with all of us, he said, "Just give us some time so we can work 11 this issue out." I think his behavior became even worse, and 12 after about two or three years, Mr. Myers was asked to resign 13 by the other trustees. That was a very difficult decision, I 14 know, for Richard and for the other trustees but they felt 15 compelled to ask him to resign. 16 Q. And do you know whether he continued to hold a position on 17 the board of trustees after that time? 18 A. He resigned very reluctantly. 19 Q. Now, after you became a trustee of Urantia Foundation, did 20 you do -- well, first of all, once you became a trustee of 21 Urantia Foundation, were there any other slots on the board 22 left to be filled? 23 A. Yes. As I mentioned, there were two trustees that had 24 resigned in the fall of '97, so there were two slots to be 25 filled. In fact, when Richard first called me, I suggested the 00551 { 4:14:43pm} 01 name of Mo Seigel to him feeling that Mo, being a chief 02 executive officer of a large company, would be much more 03 efficient and effective than I. So those trustees, the three 04 trustees, got together and they decided to bring both of us on. 05 Q. And what -- since you brought it up, what company are you 06 referring to with regard to Mr. Siegel? 07 A. He was the chief executive officer of Celestial Seasonings 08 Tea Company. 09 Q. And did Mr. Siegel join the board as well? 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 Q. And once the two of you were on the board, how many 12 trustees were there? 13 A. There were five trustees on the board. 14 Q. So you and Mr. Siegel were two of five trustees? 15 A. We were two of five, and two of five is a significant 16 percentage. Richard and the other trustees hadn't been in much 17 communication with us. I had some personal encounters with 18 Richard in the early '90s where we just sort of talked about 19 the genesis of the split and why it had happened and what could 20 be done about it, but there hadn't been a whole lot of 21 communication. So that was a big faith step on the part of 22 those trustees to bring two people onto their board from The 23 Fellowship. 24 Q. Did you see that as an olive branch to The Fellowship? 25 A. It was a very significant olive branch. 00552 { 4:16:12pm} 01 Q. Tell me, once you and Mr. Siegel joined the board of 02 trustees, did you do anything with respect to the copyright and 03 trademark policies of the organization? 04 A. Well, we joined in the winter of 1998. And in the summer 05 of '98, we had a meeting in Boulder, Colorado at Mo's offices 06 and Tonia Baney, I believe, was there. We got together to 07 reflect upon our copyright and trademark policies. What we 08 really wanted to do was to clear the air and make sure that 09 people were aware of what was permissible and what was not 10 permissible. So, we also invited our copyright attorney to 11 visit with us so that we understood how much of a liberal 12 interpretation could we apply to the copyright law and to 13 trademark law so that people would have no sense of ambiguity 14 or lack of clarity with respect to how they could use the three 15 concentric circles or the name Urantia to identify themselves 16 as readers of The Urantia Book or associated with the three 17 concentric circles, the symbol of the trinity. 18 With respect to copyright, we came out with policies which 19 in my opinion were very liberal and allowed people to do a lot 20 in the way of secondary works. There was one policy which 21 allowed for 5,000 words for commercial works where you didn't 22 have to get any permission. 23 It used to be, just to give you a little background, it 24 used to be, back in the early '70s, you couldn't use a word. 25 It was very restrictive. So, that was a big step forward in 00553 { 4:17:50pm} 01 terms of interpretation of the fair-use policy on copyright. 02 And then the labor of love, these would be like speeches 03 or things that individuals would do to promote or disseminate 04 the teachings of The Urantia Book, that was 25,000 words. 05 That's a lot. That's a lot. 06 So, we felt like we really went to the outer limits in 07 terms of the ability of individuals to make use of both 08 trademark and copyright for creative purposes. 09 Q. You have any discussions with Mr. McMullan about his plans 10 to print Jesus - A New Revelation? 11 A. Yes. Harry and I took a few walks. I remember walking 12 with him in Washington, D.C. at a Fellowship conference and 13 visiting about part IV. I wrote him a couple of letters. 14 Again, Harry viewed and I think views now The Urantia 15 Foundation as an evil organization and that its copyright is 16 illegitimate. So, his sense of antagonism toward Urantia 17 Foundation was pretty absolute. He wasn't going to consider 18 any alternatives. 19 Mo and I are very close friends of Harry's and we had 20 suggested why not he think about some kind of a creative piece 21 with respect to part IV that he could do which would be within 22 the guidelines of the copyright law, and it was his sense of 23 mission, and I'm sure it is still his sense of mission, that it 24 was God's will for him to publish this book and no copyright or 25 no foundation was going to stand in his way. 00554 { 4:19:35pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'd move that be stricken. 02 That's speculation on behalf of the witness, and he said as 03 much. 04 THE COURT: Overruled. 05 Q. (BY MR. HILL) I wanted to ask you whether or not, in 06 addition to those walks you took with him, you ever sent him 07 any letters? 08 A. Yes, I sent him two letters that I can remember and he 09 sent me one letter in response. 10 Q. And do you recall anything about the letter that he sent 11 you? 12 A. Well, he said in one part of the letter, he said, "I am 13 unalterably antagonistic toward Urantia Foundation," which is 14 sort of a black-and-white statement. Being in the world of 15 philosophy and comparative religion, I just don't think reality 16 is black and white. 17 Q. Does The Urantia Foundation presently have any ties to any 18 churches? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You'd agree that the content of The Urantia Book is at 21 least, in part, religious? 22 A. There is a significant religious aspect to The Urantia 23 Book. 24 Q. The jury really hasn't heard much of the breakdown of the 25 contents of the book. Why don't you tell them what the four 00555 { 4:20:46pm} 01 parts of the book are, in general terms. 02 A. The book indicates early on in the book that its intention 03 is to give us, if you will, the big picture. So, in part I, 04 there is a description of the cosmos, of the universe and its 05 structure and the order of angels and the various places that 06 exist within the universe, and some sense of the hierarchy 07 within the universe. There's a clear articulation in the very 08 first part of the book, the first five papers, on the nature 09 and attributes of God. It's a very lovely section with lots of 10 references to the Old and New Testament. 11 And then there's another part there in part I which 12 elaborates on the eternal Son and his nature, again with lots 13 of references to the Old and New Testament, and then on the 14 infinite spirit, the Holy Spirit, with lots of references. And 15 then there's a chapter on the trinity. So, it's a very large 16 view that's given in part I. 17 In part II, there is a breakdown which begins to talk 18 about our local universe, which is where we live. The sense is 19 in The Urantia Book that there are many universes within the 20 grand universe, and that we're part of a local universe and 21 that Jesus actually administers that local universe. And, so 22 it gives a description, kind of a geographical kind of 23 depiction along with who the personalities are that inhabit 24 that local universe. 25 Then in part III, there's a description of our planet and 00556 { 4:22:20pm} 01 the history of our planet and sort of the course of events that 02 have affected planetary history with a recounting of the days 03 of Caligastia and Lucifer; a recounting of the days of Adam and 04 Eve; a recounting of the days of Melchizadek, who was the high 05 priest of Salem during the time of Abraham. And then a very 06 nice depiction of the philosophy and psychology of religion and 07 philosophy and science, integrating the three: philosophy, 08 religion and science. 09 And then in part IV, there's a depiction of the life and 10 teachings of Jesus, and that's how I originally got interested 11 in The Urantia Book. I was sitting in this book store and a 12 fellow was describing a period of Jesus' life, which was early 13 on in his life, and I knew it wasn't in the New Testament, and 14 so I became intrigued and picked up the book and started 15 reading it. 16 So, that's kind of an overview of The Urantia Book. 17 Q. Since 1950, are you aware of any attempts by Urantia 18 Foundation to establish an institutional church or religion 19 based upon The Urantia Book? 20 A. There was, I think in the late '50s, Dr. Sadler wanted to 21 set up a school. I think there was even mention of the 22 ordination of ministers at that time but nothing came of that. 23 I think there was -- there was a reaction to that intention and 24 nothing came of it. 25 Q. And presently are there any efforts along those lines? 00557 { 4:23:59pm} 01 A. No. The current trustees really feel it's our 02 responsibility to publish this book, to translate this book, 03 and to disseminate this book. That is our sole responsibility. 04 Q. How are the efforts going along those lines? 05 A. Well, when you get somebody like Mo Seigel aboard, things 06 get exciting. He's a marketer by training. We are selling 07 more books than we've ever sold in the history of the 08 movement. Last year, it was about 39,000 books. And the 09 exciting thing was that about half of those sales were in 10 Spanish-speaking countries. 11 Q. What about translations? 12 A. We have -- I may be off one or two -- but I believe there 13 are 12 translation underway right now. We have a French 14 translation that's been completed. As I said, we have a 15 Spanish translation that's been completed. We have a Russian 16 translation that's been completed. We have a Finnish 17 translation that's been completed, and a Korean translation. 18 Q. At some point during this litigation, did you come to 19 learn that Mr. McMullan had taken the position that a subject 20 was the human author of The Urantia Book? 21 A. Yeah, about a month ago I found out that he had changed 22 his position on who the author of The Urantia Book was. 23 Q. How long had he held the position that the book was a work 24 of celestial authorship, if you will? 25 A. Ever since I've known Harry. 00558 { 4:25:40pm} 01 Q. And that began -- 02 A. 1973, I believe. 1972. 03 Q. Are you familiar with a term known as the millennium 04 initiative? 05 A. Yes. I was one of the people that pushed that initiative. 06 Q. And tell the jury what the millennium initiative was. 07 A. The millennium initiative was an initiative on the part of 08 several people who were a part of The Fellowship as well as 09 part of The Foundation and the IUA to patch things up, to put 10 our house back in order. A house divided against itself will 11 not stand. There's a very clear articulation of that in The 12 Urantia Book. In fact, one of the central values of The 13 Urantia Book is that unity is the existential fact of the 14 universe; it is the core of our experience if we would but open 15 ourselves up to it. So, to begin to live that out within the 16 people that were reading The Urantia Book was a very high 17 priority. It's always been a high priority for me but it 18 became a high priority for a group of people who began this 19 millennium initiative which was the commencement of a set of 20 dialogues trying to bring that rift together. 21 Q. Now, there's been some previous testimony about a recent 22 mediation between Urantia Foundation and The Urantia Book 23 Fellowship. Can you tell us, from your perspective, what the 24 conflict was that gave rise to the need for mediation. 25 A. The Fellowship has a very significant web site presence. 00559 { 4:27:21pm} 01 On their web site, there were several translations of the book 02 that had not been sort of officially completed. They were 03 partial translations. Our translators, people from those 04 countries, were reflecting back to us as trustees that many of 05 those were of poor quality. So, there was a deep concern that 06 this web site was representing The Urantia Book with a poor 07 quality translation. 08 Our desire, through copyright, has been to provide as high 09 a quality of translation in all foreign countries as possible 10 so that people could have the same opportunity of reading this 11 book as closely to the original text as possible. So, the 12 web site had unauthorized translations. I believe there was 13 also some trademark violations associated with the web site. 14 And, so, the mediation was an attempt to work our way through 15 those issues. 16 Q. And did you participate in that mediation? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. Did all of the trustees attend that mediation? 19 A. Yes, we did. 20 Q. And what about The Fellowship, who attended that mediation 21 on behalf of The Fellowship? 22 A. There was several members of their executive committee, 23 Dan Massey, Marvin Garland, Marilyn Kulieke. I'm slipping on a 24 couple of the others.-- 25 Q. Avi Dogim? 00560 { 4:28:50pm} 01 A. Avi was there. He's the president of The Fellowship right 02 now. 03 Q. And Mr. Plourde was there on behalf of The Fellowship; is 04 that not correct? 05 A. Yes, Ross was there. 06 Q. And I was there? 07 A. You were there. 08 Q. And how long did we -- when did we start mediating, Gard? 09 A. It was a marathon session. We went from 9 a.m. to 10 3 o'clock in the morning. It was very tiring toward the end, 11 but we kept pushing because we knew we needed to bridge this 12 rift. 13 Q. And was that mediation successful? 14 A. I believe it was. 15 Q. Now, I want to ask you whether or not you encouraged 16 Mr. McMullan to come up with the idea for publishing part IV of 17 The Urantia Book on its own. 18 A. I can't say that I encouraged Harry to do this. During 19 the early '90s, during the period of the split, there were 20 several of us, Mo included, who thought maybe this would be a 21 good idea to have a separate part IV. And so that idea was in 22 the air. Like any idea, you consider it and you reconsider it 23 and you keep coming back to it until you arrive at a 24 conclusion, and my conclusion was that it was not a good idea. 25 Q. And what about Mr. Siegel, do you know whether or not 00561 { 4:30:29pm} 01 Mr. Siegel -- were you ever present when Mr. Siegel encouraged 02 Mr. McMullan to print part IV separately? 03 A. Again, I wouldn't call Mo the inspiration for this idea. 04 I think Harry came up with the idea all by himself. But during 05 the discussions, there was consideration of the idea and I 06 think Mo for a period of time was excited about the idea. Part 07 IV is a very powerful statement about Jesus but what I came to 08 realize was that this is part of a larger whole. If you want 09 the full story, you take all four parts. That's how it was 10 given to us and I don't want to second guess how it was given 11 to us. 12 Q. And once you learned that Jesus - A New Revelation had 13 been published, what was the board of trustees' initial 14 reaction? 15 A. Dismay because we had made several attempts to visit with 16 Harry. I remember out in California, Tonia and I sat with him 17 at dinner one evening and really suggested that his resources 18 would be better spent doing something creative around part IV. 19 One of the secondary sources that came out subsequent to 20 our new policies was a book which compares the Gospels and The 21 Urantia Book, kind of passage by passage or story by story by a 22 fellow named Larry Weylan, and it was a very nicely-done book. 23 It kind of gives you a sense of how The Urantia Book and the 24 Gospels compare. So, I suggested to Harry, "That's just a 25 wonderful thing that Lawrence Weylan has done and why don't you 00562 { 4:32:06pm} 01 do something similar?" Harry, again, his attitude was 02 antagonistic. That he would use all of his resources to see 03 that this book came forward, and that if we did in some fashion 04 step up in favor of the copyright, he would meet us in court. 05 Q. Are you familiar with a book called Paramony by Duane Faw? 06 A. Dwayne Faw is one of my very good friends. It's a 07 wonderful book. 08 Q. Can you tell the jury what the purpose of Paramony is? 09 A. Duane is a retired general in the Marine Corps, and he's a 10 Methodist. And Dwayne, at one point, I think back in the '70s 11 or early '80s, wanted to compare the Gospel passages with 12 passages from The Urantia Book, so he did what's called a 13 paramony, which is the parallel passages in harmony, that are 14 in harmony between The Urantia Book and the Gospels. 15 Q. And how many quotes or paraphrases from biblical passages 16 are actually present in The Urantia Book? 17 A. Well, you held up the book and you can hold it up again. 18 It's very thick. As The Urantia Book indicates, in the body of 19 the text, much of The Urantia Book is derived from secondary 20 sources. Probably the largest secondary source in The Urantia 21 Book is the Bible itself. 22 Q. Are you aware of any other sources? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Other than the Bible? 25 A. I'm aware of a few. 00563 { 4:33:41pm} 01 Q. Have you done any side-by-side comparing? 02 A. Yes, I have. There's a fellow named Sumner who is a 03 professor at Yale in the early part of the century and he was 04 regarded as called the father of sociology. I got a hold of 05 this book and if you look at the table of contents and you look 06 at the material in the book, it's very similar to many aspects 07 in part III of the book, especially the sections on marriage 08 and on early civilization. Again, he was the father of 09 sociology, so many of his ideas were very popular in America at 10 the time, and they're still very popular. 11 Q. Any other sources other than Sumner and the Bible? 12 A. There's a fellow named Henry Nelson Weyman. You may be 13 familiar with the name of Houston Smith. By his marriage, 14 Henry Nelson Weyman was a grandfather and Henry Nelson Weyman 15 was a very popular philosopher and psychologist in the early 16 part of the century and he wrote a book called Normative 17 Psychology. Many of the sections in the third part again 18 having to do with religion, philosophy and science, you can 19 find in Henry Nelson Weyman. 20 Q. Now, when you say you can find, are you saying that these 21 are -- that there are lengthy passages that are side by side or 22 exactly alike? 23 A. The image I prefer to use is a quilt. What the authors of 24 The Urantia Book did is they took the best thoughts that were 25 available in psychology and religion and philosophy and they 00564 { 4:35:21pm} 01 took these thoughts from these various secondary sources and 02 they quilted them together to make a patchwork quilt. 03 For instance, there's a section from Bertrand Russell, who 04 is a very famous philosopher in the early part of the century, 05 and it comes from a passage or essay that he wrote called A 06 Free Man's Worship. It's not the same passage but if you read 07 the passage in Urantia Book and then you read Bertrand 08 Russell's passage in Free Man's Worship, you can see that it's 09 the same sense, the same flavor. 10 Q. And is that also true of the Weyman work -- 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. -- for example? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Do you know whether The Fellowship is presently preparing 15 to publish The Urantia Book in anticipation of the outcome of 16 this case? 17 A. If the copyright is invalidated, I have no doubt that The 18 Fellowship will engage in publication and distribution of the 19 book. 20 MR. HILL: Thank you. I don't have any other 21 questions. 22 THE COURT: Cross-examine? 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 25 00565 { 4:36:49pm} 01 CROSS-EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 03 Q. Okay? 04 A. Hi. 05 Q. Sir, you are here today representing The Foundation? 06 A. I'm a trustee of Urantia Foundation. 07 Q. The answer to my question is yes? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And you are here with the interest, the prime interest in 10 seeing that this copyright and these trademarks are upheld; is 11 that correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. All right. Did you ever have a different view of the 14 copyright? 15 A. During the days of Martin Myers, if you can imagine a 16 Stalinist figure running The Foundation, I was concerned as to 17 whether or not The Urantia Foundation could carry out its 18 trust, and so I was concerned about the kind of power that was 19 being wielded by, in particular, Martin Myers, and its ability 20 to do what it was told to do. So, for that reason, I felt that 21 perhaps having the copyright in public domain might be 22 beneficial in the long-term, again, so long as Martin Myers was 23 running the show. 24 Q. When was the Maaherra litigation? 25 A. It was the early '90s. I believe Judge Urbom's decision 00566 { 4:38:28pm} 01 was early '95. 02 Q. And what was your status with respect to the Urantia 03 movement in that range of time? 04 A. At that time I was chair of the fraternal relations 05 committee. 06 Q. Of -- 07 A. The fraternal relations committee. 08 Q. Of which organization? 09 A. Of The Fellowship. 10 Q. And when did you become a member of the board of trustees 11 of The Urantia Foundation? 12 A. Richard called me in January of 1998. 13 Q. And you went on the board shortly thereafter? 14 A. Shortly thereafter. 15 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that you contributed to the Maaherra 16 defense fund? 17 A. I contributed to the Maaherra defense fund because of 18 J. J. Johnson who I felt was unjustly -- unjustly accused by 19 Urantia Foundation. 20 Q. The answer to the question is yes, you did? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And what was the effect of your contribution to the 23 defense fund of Maaherra? She was trying to essentially have 24 the Court determine that the copyright was invalid; is that 25 correct? 00567 { 4:39:34pm} 01 A. Correct. 02 Q. And you provided financial support for that effort? Yes 03 or no. 04 A. No. 05 Q. You did contribute to her defense fund? 06 A. No, I contributed to J. J. Johnson. I restricted those 07 monies, which you can do with a charitable organization, and I 08 asked that those funds be directed to J. J. Johnson. 09 Q. Did your funds support -- Isn't it true that those funds 10 supported the Maaherra effort? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Now, you indicated that at one time you were in view -- of 13 the view that the best perhaps position for The Foundation to 14 pursue its work under its charter would be that this copyright 15 be in the public domain; is that what you said? 16 A. With the leadership of Martin Myers, I felt concerned 17 about the work of The Urantia Foundation as a trust. 18 Q. And that would have been a situation where The Foundation 19 would then have to determine whether or not uses made of the 20 copyright were such that it would trigger a reaction to them? 21 A. I'm not sure I follow your question. 22 Q. All right. Let me start over again. 23 In the public domain, we're talking about anybody can do 24 anything with respect to the publication of that book. 25 A. Anybody can do anything once it's in the public domain. 00568 { 4:41:04pm} 01 Q. All right. And that would include the publication of 02 Jesus - A New Revelation? 03 A. Correct. 04 Q. Do you recall a meeting in Beaver Creek, Colorado with 05 you, Mr. Siegel and Mr. McMullan discussing precisely the 06 publication of part IV? 07 A. No, sir, I don't. 08 Q. You deny that meeting took place? 09 A. I just don't recall it. 10 Q. You do not recall a meeting -- let me ask it again -- in 11 Beaver Creek, Colorado that involved you, involved Mr. McMullan 12 and Mr. Siegel about which the precise subject was a discussion 13 of the publication of this book? 14 A. I apologize. I don't remember the meeting. 15 Q. All right. Fair enough. 16 You do recall Mr. Siegel being very enthusiastic about 17 this book; correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And its publication in the very form that it sits in front 20 of you? 21 A. I don't recall him being excited about this cover or the 22 way in which this book was put forth, but I do recall that he 23 was excited about the idea of part IV being separately printed. 24 Q. And for what reason? 25 A. Well, there was a feeling, and I know Harry shares this 00569 { 4:42:21pm} 01 feeling, that the gospel of Jesus is the most transformative 02 message on the face of the planet, so the feeling was to get 03 that gospel out in as pure a form as possible would be helpful 04 to the dissemination of the teachings. 05 Q. And that view was expressed by Mr. Siegel at what point in 06 time? 07 A. I believe -- I believe he was talking with Harry in '94, 08 '95, thereabouts. 09 Q. Was that before he went on The Foundation board? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And your comments about placing that -- placing The 12 Urantia Book in the -- what did you call it, the common -- 13 A. You called it the public domain. 14 Q. Public domain. That view was expressed by you before you 15 went on The Foundation? 16 A. While Martin Myers was president. 17 Q. All right. You had mentioned that there was some 18 antagonism going on and you mentioned that -- I used the word 19 "despot" to describe him the other day and Mr. Keeler, I think, 20 agreed with the characterization. He was a man that would not 21 let the books be sold to certain people? 22 A. Yes. He put a restriction on certain people. He also 23 restricted the channels of distribution so that distributors 24 were not being used. 25 Q. Did he have a dossier on you? 00570 { 4:43:57pm} 01 A. He never showed me the dossier but I suspect he did. 02 Q. Did he have a dossier on Mr. McMullan? 03 A. The only dossier I ever saw was the one on Duane Faw who 04 wrote that book called Paramony. Again, Duane is a wonderful 05 person. 06 Q. And it was true, in addition to his rather -- not his, 07 rather, but his restrictive views about who should be given 08 access to the book, he also controlled access, did he not, to 09 the various Foundation meetings where he declared certain 10 people would not be admitted to those meetings? 11 A. I don't have any knowledge of that. 12 Q. That's new information to you? 13 A. That's new information to me. 14 Q. Do you recall a meeting that occurred in, I believe, North 15 Carolina in which people whose views he didn't agree with, he 16 asked and had and were told to leave the meeting? 17 A. I don't recall that meeting. 18 Q. Do you deny that took place? 19 A. I just don't recall that. I don't recall the meeting. 20 Q. Okay. Now, is there anything wrong with The Fellowship 21 office being in Oklahoma City, getting free rent? 22 A. The aspect of it that concerned me was Harry's anger 23 toward Urantia Foundation, and that that kind of anger, as much 24 as Martin Myers was angry about The Fellowship, could reverse 25 itself and be located in The Fellowship and that that kind of 00571 { 4:45:33pm} 01 control could be concentrated with one person. That concerned 02 me. So I wasn't in favor of moving the offices. 03 Q. I understand you weren't in favor of it but is there 04 anything wrong with free rent in Oklahoma? 05 A. Yes, I do believe, because it's not just about free rent. 06 It's about who's actually operating The Fellowship and how 07 decisions are being made and whether or not they're being made 08 democratically. 09 Q. Mr. McMullan was never in favor of changing the method by 10 which the decisions were made in The Fellowship, was he? 11 A. Not that I recall. 12 Q. So, there is a procedure by virtue of which decisions are 13 made at levels in The Fellowship? 14 A. There is. 15 Q. And doesn't that procedure assure that the decision is 16 made in a democratic sense? 17 A. Not necessarily. There's an executive director at the 18 Fellowship as there is an executive director at The Foundation 19 and both of those individuals wield quite a bit of power. 20 Q. This lady over here? 21 A. Tonia Baney. 22 Q. Okay. And she wields that power? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. That person, whomever it is in The Fellowship, would wield 25 the same power? 00572 { 4:46:49pm} 01 A. Yes, sir. 02 Q. And they would do it whether they were in Oakland, 03 California, or Minneapolis or Oklahoma City? 04 A. Again, my concern was Harry's anger and his antagonism 05 toward Urantia Foundation. 06 Q. My question is, sir: That person who wields that power 07 and has that big stick can wield it in Boston, Dallas, Texas or 08 Oklahoma City; is that correct? 09 A. That is correct. 10 Q. All right. Now, I'd like, sir, -- 11 MR. ABOWITZ: We lost our document person. It's 12 142. It has already been admitted. 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, this is already part of the record 14 in this case. I sympathize with your glass problem but -- 15 A. It's here? 16 Q. Yeah. Can you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may we turn that monitor 19 around a little bit? 20 THE COURT: Sure. Sure. 21 A. Pull it forward? 22 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) You can get closer to it. I'm trying to 23 get it -- 24 THE COURT: You'll have to be a bit of the 25 contortionist because you have to keep in mind that you have to 00573 { 4:48:32pm} 01 speak loudly enough into the microphone that this court 02 reporter can hear you and that I can hear you, and that's the 03 chore because I don't hear all that well. 04 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 05 A. I can see it and then I'll respond into the mike. 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) You can see it all right? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Do you recognize that as the first page of a talk that 09 was given by you in Helsinki, Finland? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And the occasion was what? 12 A. There was an international conference in Helsinki, Finland 13 that year. 14 Q. And you took that opportunity, did you not, to address the 15 publication of Jesus - A New Revelation? 16 A. Among other things, yes, sir. 17 Q. Okay. Let me show you the text on page 2 of your 18 address. Can you see that? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And you used the analogy of the cutting the Mona Lisa in 21 quarters. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And your view, is it correct, expressed at that time in 24 that address, was that if you used Urantia Book as the Mona 25 Lisa, cutting out one part of the Jesus papers would ruin the 00574 { 4:49:55pm} 01 entire work, essentially? 02 A. Yes. All four parts are connected. 03 Q. And it's a unified work, in your view? 04 A. It's a unified work. 05 Q. And should be addressed as such? 06 A. Yes, sir. 07 Q. And you further go through an example of your son, 08 Michael, who enjoys puzzles and you pose an interesting 09 conundrum, how you put the puzzle together if you deprive him 10 of 25 percent of the pieces. 11 A. Right. There are aspects to part IV that you can't 12 understand without the other three parts. 13 Q. And were you here when Mr. -- no, you weren't. I'm sorry. 14 There's an index in Jesus - A New Revelation; is that 15 correct? 16 A. You know, I haven't seen it in a while but I think there 17 was something in the back. 18 Q. Did you read that book? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Have you examined it? 21 A. Harry sent me a copy and I looked at it briefly. 22 Q. Now, there was a time that Mr. McMullan asked for your 23 assistance with the board of trustees in this question about 24 whether there would be attribution for The Foundation in the 25 Jesus - A New Revelation. Do you recall that? 00575 { 4:51:21pm} 01 A. Yeah. Harry, I believe, sent me an e-mail that asked 02 whether or not we wanted our name associated with the 03 publication of this work. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have a minute to get that, Judge? 05 THE COURT: What is the exhibit number? 06 MR. ABOWITZ: The exhibit is 22, Your Honor. It's 07 already in evidence. 08 THE COURT: Go ahead. 09 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Can you see that, Mr. Jameson? 10 A. Yes, I can. 11 Q. Do I have to fiddle with it or can you see it? 12 A. No, I think I've got it. If you're referring to certain 13 sections, let me know. 14 Q. Yeah, okay, sure. 15 Let me address your response to Mr. McMullan's query. You 16 say, "We're making progress but it takes time." What did you 17 mean by that comment? 18 A. Well, as I indicated, Urantia Foundation had sort of an 19 antagonistic attitude toward The Fellowship in the early '90s 20 and I felt like the ice was thawing and that we were making 21 progress in terms of developing a new understanding, a new 22 chapter in the relationships between the organizations. 23 Q. Well, in fact, Mr. McMullan was trying to reach some 24 accommodation with The Foundation on that issue, wasn't he? 25 A. What are you referring to? 00576 { 4:53:20pm} 01 Q. The purpose for the e-mail in the first instance. 02 A. No, I believe if you read earlier, I say, "Your 03 presumption is correct, that we want nothing to do with the 04 publication of this book." 05 Q. No, no, no. What was the purpose for Mr. McMullan's 06 inquiry of you, the initial one? 07 A. He was suggesting in this inquiry that since he hadn't 08 heard from me, he assumed that we didn't want our name 09 associated with this book and I said, "Your presumption is 10 correct." 11 Q. Right. But his earlier attempt at this was to make some 12 accommodation with The Foundation; isn't that correct? 13 A. I don't know how you would define "accommodation" when 14 somebody steals a portion of a copyright. 15 Q. He was trying to make some accommodation with The 16 Foundation in this series of correspondence; is that correct? 17 A. I wouldn't define that as an accommodation. I would 18 define it as an attack on the copyright of The Urantia Book. 19 Q. Well, it's a copyright that was attacked in the Maaherra 20 case and it's a copyright that at one time you thought should 21 have been in the public domain; is that correct? 22 A. That one time was in the public domain. 23 Q. All right. And it was, when it was in the public domain, 24 where you thought it should be; is that correct? 25 A. No. 00577 { 4:54:43pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: That's all I have, Your Honor. 02 THE COURT: Redirect, if any? 03 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 04 BY MR. HILL: 05 Q. Can you explain why you felt that J. J. Johnson was worthy 06 of your support in the Maaherra litigation? 07 A. Well, I felt that Kristen Maaherra was the one that 08 actually initiated the attack on the copyright and that J. J. 09 Johnson was merely sitting on the side but he was close enough 10 to be pulled into the lawsuit and I had been told that he had 11 had to expend personal funds on the order of about $5,000, so I 12 think somewhere between 1,000 and $1,500 I sent to the Asoka 13 Foundation asking that it be directed to J. J. Johnson. 14 Q. And was Mr. Johnson eventually dropped out of that 15 lawsuit? 16 A. He was, with an apology, I believe. 17 Q. An apology from Urantia Foundation? 18 A. From Urantia Foundation. 19 Q. And in all of the conversations or writings that you had 20 with Mr. McMullan regarding his offer to mention Urantia 21 Foundation as the publisher of Jesus - A New Revelation, did he 22 ever offer to give a copyright notice? 23 A. Never. 24 MR. HILL: No more questions. 25 THE COURT: Recross? 00578 { 4:56:21pm} 01 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 02 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 03 Q. Did you ever ask for one? 04 A. No, sir. 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 06 THE COURT: You may step down, sir. You'll be 07 excused. 08 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 09 THE COURT: Gentlemen, let's recess for the evening. 10 Is that all right? 11 MR. ABOWITZ: Fine with us, Judge. 12 THE COURT: Do you have any crucial witnesses that 13 you need to put on today, counselor? I guess that's what I'm 14 asking. 15 MR. HILL: I'm going to -- 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, I've got one witness. 17 THE COURT: Pardon? 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I've got one witness here today. 19 My concern is we have a number of witnesses tomorrow that are 20 leaving in the evening, early evening tomorrow and flying out, 21 and we could probably do that but we'll have -- it will take me 22 20 minutes on direct at the tops. I know I went over my hour 23 last time but I assure you this will be fairly short. 24 THE COURT: Let me ask you this: Would you rather go 25 on this afternoon with him and work late or would you rather I 00579 { 4:57:18pm} 01 check with the jury to see if they could come in a little 02 earlier in the morning and start earlier? 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes, that would be fine. 04 THE COURT: Let me inquire. First, let me ask: 05 Would it work any great hardship on any of the jurors if we 06 worked another 30 minutes or 40 minutes this afternoon? I'll 07 ask that question. If you would, just raise your hand. 08 Now then, the second question is: Would it work any great 09 hardship on you if we came in at, say, 8:15 in the morning and 10 started to work? Anybody have any particular problems with 11 that? 12 Now, let me have a show of hands. Which would you prefer 13 to do, work 30, 45 minutes this afternoon, raise your hand. 14 All right. That answers it. 15 We'll go ahead and call your witness at this time. 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Democracy. 17 THE COURT: That's about as democratic as we get in 18 court. 19 MR. HILL: Your Honor, we need a short recess for a 20 restroom break. 21 THE COURT: Need to take a break, five-minute break? 22 MR. HILL: Just enough time to do that. 23 THE COURT: We'll do that. Ladies and gentlemen, 24 let's take a five-minute recess. Be back at 5 o'clock and 25 we'll resume then. 00580 { 4:58:53pm} 01 Everyone please stand. 02 Court is in recess. 03 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 04 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 05 THE JURY:) 06 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, Rob Davis. 08 THE COURT: Raise your right hand and be sworn, sir. 09 (WITNESS SWORN) 10 ROBERT LEE DAVIS, IV, 11 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 12 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 13 THE COURT: Be seated here and speak into the 14 microphone and I'll ask you to state your full name and spell 15 your last name for the jury and for the court record, please. 16 THE WITNESS: My full name and spell my last name? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. I haven't said this in a long 19 time. Robert Lee Davis, IV. My last name is spelled 20 D-A-V-I-S. 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 23 Q. Mr. Davis, would you tell the jury a little bit about 24 yourself. 25 A. Well, yes. I was born in Nashville, Tennessee and I grew 00581 { 5:06:06pm} 01 up there. I went to college at George Peabody College at 02 Vanderbilt University. I am married now almost 22 years. I 03 have two children -- my wife and I have two children, a boy and 04 a girl. My son is 18, our daughter is 16. We live in -- 05 outside -- in Montclair, New Jersey, outside of New York City. 06 I've worked in the book business for almost 20 years, the last 07 12 of it working with Cambridge University Press. 08 THE COURT: Are you able to hear him all right, 09 ladies and gentlemen of the jury? 10 You can't hear him very well? 11 A JUROR: Not very well. 12 THE COURT: Pull that microphone just a little 13 closer, if you will. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. Is that better? 15 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Tell the jury a little bit about 16 Cambridge University Press. 17 A. Cambridge University Press was chartered in 1534 by King 18 Henry the VIIIth, a well known figure in western history 19 anyway. We publish and have continuously published books since 20 1584. Currently, we produce approximately 1,500 titles a year, 21 and then we also publish quite a range of academic journals. 22 Q. Do you publish any books on -- well, with regard to the 23 topic of religion or philosophy or books of that nature? 24 A. Oh, yes. We publish in every field of academic inquiry. 25 Religious studies and philosophy, particularly philosophy is 00582 { 5:07:50pm} 01 one of our strongest parts of our list. 02 Q. And how long, again, have you worked in the book industry? 03 A. Actually about a little over 17 years. 04 Q. Do you have any knowledge regarding sales and distribution 05 in the book industry? 06 A. Oh, yes. That's my principal responsibility. 07 Q. Why don't we tell the jury a little bit about the book 08 industry and players. Can you tell the jury what a distributor 09 is? 10 A. A distributor is -- serves as an aggregator in the book 11 industry, a source for book shops, for instance, your corner 12 book shop that might order a book without having to order 13 directly from the publisher because it's more efficient, you 14 might say, it's more economical to order many books from one 15 source than, you know, the same number of books from multiple 16 sources. So, that's the principal role of a distributor in the 17 book business. 18 Q. Are there -- how is the book -- how are distributors in 19 the industry, are there some major distributors in the 20 industry? 21 A. Yes. The book business has changed a bit dramatically in 22 the past 10 years. There are now really just a few key 23 players. And as far as book distributors for the retail trade, 24 there would be two key book distributors. 25 Q. Would you name them for the jury, please. 00583 { 5:09:32pm} 01 A. Baker and Taylor, and Ingram Book Company. 02 Q. All right. Now that we know what a distributor is, can 03 you tell the jury what a publisher is? 04 A. Yes. A publisher is the organization that in many cases 05 might commission a book. We would be responsible for securing 06 the copyright, for producing the book, and presenting it to the 07 larger book trade. 08 Q. Is there any relationship or interaction between 09 publishers and distributors? 10 A. Oh, yes. We're partners in the larger distribution 11 network and we cultivate, you know, the best possible relations 12 with these key businesses. 13 Q. Are you familiar with The Urantia Book? 14 A. Yes, I am. 15 Q. What about the industry generally? 16 MR. ABOWITZ: I don't understand that question, 17 Judge. Is he familiar with the industry? 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Let me rephrase. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, please. 20 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Based on your knowledge of the 21 industry, is The Urantia Book known in the industry? 22 A. Are you talking about in the book business as a general 23 industry as it were? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Yes, it is known. It's a very widely-sold book, and it 00584 { 5:11:01pm} 01 sells pretty well. I mean, as far as book dealers are 02 concerned, they know it because of that. 03 Q. Is The Urantia Book equated with any particular source in 04 the industry? 05 A. Well, yes. Anybody that has ever ordered The Urantia 06 Book, aside from ordering it directly from a distributor, would 07 have ordered it from The Urantia Foundation. But even if they 08 were acquiring the books from a book distributor, on the 09 distributor's databases, for instance, when they're looking up 10 the title, the publisher is always listed. So it would be 11 nearly impossible not to recognize The Urantia Foundation as 12 the publisher of The Urantia Book. 13 And then, even more so, the American Book Sellers 14 Association produces a handbook and it's the only -- it's an 15 industry trade standard that if you were going into the book 16 business, you would acquire this binder basically that tells 17 you key information about every publisher that you could 18 possibly deal with, including their name, address, phone 19 number, web sites, the discount schedule that they might offer 20 you, the return policies they would afford, because in the book 21 business books can be returned if they're not sold. 22 Q. Based on these industry lists and that trade standard list 23 you discussed, is there any recognition in the book industry in 24 connection -- connecting The Urantia Book with Urantia 25 Foundation? 00585 { 5:12:34pm} 01 A. Yes, as the book publisher. Also, I think, just because 02 it's a bit unusual for a book publisher to publish one title 03 and, therefore, because there is recognition of the success of 04 The Urantia Book, I think it would be fair to say that there's 05 a larger recognition for The Urantia Foundation as the 06 publisher because most consumers honestly don't think about the 07 book publisher when you buy a book. But if that book has an 08 increasingly prominent role in your business, then you might 09 take note of the source of it. 10 Q. Do you have any familiarity with the sales of The Urantia 11 Book? And I don't mean last year or the year before. I mean 12 generally. 13 A. Oh, yes, I do. I'm familiar with the sales pattern. 14 Q. Does your familiarity extend to any particular time frame? 15 A. Oh, yes. I'm familiar with the sales pattern over the 16 course of the entire life of The Urantia Book. 17 Q. How would you describe the sales pattern of The Urantia 18 Book? 19 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me, Your Honor. This is a 20 solicitation of an opinion and this man was not listed as an 21 expert. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. I believe I'll let him 23 testify. 24 A. I'm sorry. Would you repeat the question? 25 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Sure, if I can remember it. 00586 { 5:14:04pm} 01 Tell the jury a little bit about the -- 02 A. Sales pattern over the course? 03 Q. Sure. 04 A. Well, yes. Honestly, I've never seen and I don't know of 05 any book that has enjoyed such an enviable growth in sales 06 published over the course of 50 years, or a little over 50 07 years, and especially one that has seen that kind of sales 08 growth without any consumer advertising. It's a very enviable 09 picture. 10 Q. Now, you're not telling the jury that The Urantia Book 11 outsells the latest John Grisham book? 12 A. No. Make no mistake, I'm taking about a sales pattern, 13 not a sales figure. Every year, as we all know, there are 14 blockbuster bestsellers, but the thing is, if you think about 15 those, can you remember the one that occurred two or three 16 years ago? The point is that these books that we're all 17 familiar with that are the most prominent part of our popular 18 culture sell very well in the year of their release and they 19 might even have a movie made after them but after that they 20 sort of -- the culture moves on to the next big best seller. 21 But what you don't see is a steady growing and demand for a 22 book over the course of 50 years. Honestly, I just don't know 23 of any other book like it. 24 Q. So -- 25 THE COURT: Let me ask a question here. What about 00587 { 5:15:40pm} 01 the Oxford English Dictionary? 02 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Well, you know, we almost 03 published that. 04 THE COURT: You do? 05 THE WITNESS: Yes -- no. We turned that one down. 06 That was one of our great sadnesses. 07 THE COURT: How does it stand in published editions 08 compared to any other book? Well, the Bible, for instance. Is 09 the King James Version of the Bible a heavily published and 10 sold book? 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Yes, the King James 12 Version of the Bible. 13 Well, let me ask you a question first. The Oxford English 14 Dictionary, that's somewhat unique. The sales are what we call 15 in the industry the O-E-D, just to make it short, but those are 16 steady sales. It's a very large book and very expensive. 17 There is a compact edition. And when Oxford reintroduced a new 18 compact edition about five or six years ago, it was a bit more 19 compact and had a bit more of a high-tech magnifying glass 20 which was necessary to read it, they experienced a peak in 21 sales, and they're always promoting it because it's a staple 22 item, yes. 23 But I would say that the sales pattern though is not one 24 that shows what would be, like if you were interested in the 25 stock market, would be a highly enviable chart reflecting 00588 { 5:17:07pm} 01 increasing demand over the long, you know, term, over each 02 year. 03 THE COURT: Appreciate it. I didn't mean to distract 04 you. Go ahead. 05 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, no, I enjoyed it. Thank 06 you for your question. 07 Okay. Where were we? 08 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) If I can contrast what you and Your 09 Honor were talking about. The Oxford English Dictionary might 10 have a sales pattern of this and it might always be higher than 11 The Urantia Book. I don't ask you that as a fact, but, I mean, 12 it will have a sales pattern something like that while The 13 Urantia Book is at a sales pattern basically like this. 14 A. Yes, but even last year's sales, I don't know if Oxford -- 15 I shouldn't say -- but I don't know if Oxford could say that 16 they sold 50,000 copies of the O-E-D, especially the full 17 version. 18 That's a book that, Your Honor, has a special place in 19 library collections because of its expense and the sheer size 20 of it. The compact edition would be for the consumer market. 21 But, even still, you know, it would be an enviable thing to 22 have sold 40,000 copies of that. 23 THE COURT: Go ahead. 24 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Does this sales pattern you're 25 talking about for The Urantia Book, does it give you any 00589 { 5:18:22pm} 01 indication of future sales? 02 A. Well, yes. I mean, it points towards a very positive 03 outlook just simply in regards to the sales potential of The 04 Urantia Book, given the emerging worldwide market which we're 05 seeing now increasingly in the book trade. 06 Q. Are you familiar -- I don't know if this is a term used in 07 the book industry but it's a common term: compete. Can you 08 tell me are there such things as competitive books? 09 A. Oh, by all means, yes. I mean, there are always -- every 10 book has a competitor. Oftentimes, you know, that's something 11 that will be compared to it and will be competing on the shelf 12 for its space. So, yes, certainly. 13 Q. Are you familiar with Jesus - A New Revelation? 14 A. Yes, I am. 15 Q. Is that Jesus - A New Revelation right there? 16 A. Right. Yes. 17 Q. Do you consider JANR -- based on your experience in the 18 industry, do you consider Jesus - A New Revelation to be a 19 competing book with The Urantia Book? 20 MR. ABOWITZ: That's pure opinion, Judge. 21 THE COURT: And I think he's qualified sufficiently 22 to answer -- 23 MR. ABOWITZ: He has not been listed. 24 THE COURT: -- and offer his opinion. The objection 25 is overruled. You may go ahead. 00590 { 5:19:45pm} 01 A. So the question is: Is this, in my view, a competing book 02 on the bookshelf for bookshelf space? 03 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Yes. 04 A. By all means, yes. Clearly -- I mean, you've seen -- I 05 don't need to hold these books up; you've seen them probably. 06 But this book that Harry McMullan has printed is a large -- 07 probably the largest single portion of The Urantia Book. I've 08 seen the price list that he developed and, you know, it should 09 be cheaper, it's smaller, but, as you can well imagine, it's a 10 much more familiar story than the rest of The Urantia Book, 11 which is somewhat, to many people, a bit difficult, if not 12 perhaps just an arcane work, whereas, the story of Jesus is 13 about as compelling a story as one can imagine. 14 Therefore, clearly in a book store environment where there 15 are books competing more and more so for physical shelf space, 16 inventory turn, which is a key factor in evaluating if you were 17 a book dealer whether you should reorder a book, not because 18 you love it or you don't, but because it actually sells, and 19 you had something competing, you or perhaps people would be 20 more inclined to pick up a cheaper, smaller, more accessible 21 part of a larger perhaps more difficult book, it doesn't really 22 take much -- you know, you don't have to be a rocket scientist 23 to figure out that quite easily it could displace this Urantia 24 Book on the bookshelf. It's just a -- it's a fact of, you 25 know, the struggle, the competitive nature for shelf space in 00591 { 5:21:46pm} 01 book stores. 02 Q. Now, whether it would replace the book or not, certainly 03 sales of Urantia Book may suffer if Jesus - A New Revelation is 04 sold? 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, we're going to object. 06 That's speculation. 07 THE COURT: Overruled. He can express an opinion. 08 A. Yes, my opinion. Well, clearly it could suffer, yes, 09 because if you had written a book and a large part of it was 10 somewhat difficult but you used -- or a portion of it was a 11 very concrete illustration of some difficult material that you 12 had spent a lot of time developing and somebody came along and 13 said, "Well, you know, if you just cut off this part, we could 14 sell a lot of that," but, you know, if you valued the other 15 part of it as an author, you would regret the work that you had 16 put into the rest of the book being basically ignored by this, 17 you know, more commercial sort of prospect. 18 Q. Let's change subjects. 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. Do you have an understanding, based on your experience in 21 the industry -- and when I say "industry," I mean book 22 industry -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- what the term "fair use" means? I don't want a legal 25 definition, but if you know from your experience, please share 00592 { 5:23:06pm} 01 it with the jury. 02 A. Oh, certainly, because fair use is what all of publishing 03 is predicated upon in some way. We all, as book publishers, 04 observe and are careful to make fair use and define it very 05 clearly. It varies from publisher to publisher how they would 06 administer the extension of rights or the use of a part of a 07 text in another book depending upon its use, whether it was for 08 educational purposes, in which case we would be very generous, 09 more generous than we would if it was a commercial use part of 10 the book. 11 Generally, though, if it's for another book that could be 12 possibly competing with our own, we would consider charging for 13 even as little as a page, but certainly anything over a 14 chapter, we would definitely be charging because we would be 15 calculating then the possibility whether it's -- we don't know 16 but it's certainly possible that it could take away from the 17 sale of the book from which it's drawn. So, that's, to some 18 extent, the way we would evaluate that. 19 Q. Does Cambridge University Press have any standards of fair 20 use? 21 A. Yes, we have guidelines and we're flexible within those 22 guidelines. But it's all predicated upon use being made in 23 good faith, which is to say that, you know, if somebody came 24 and they wanted to use part of a book for a research paper, 25 that would be something that we would be very generous in 00593 { 5:24:54pm} 01 regards to supporting. If they wanted to use it in a competing 02 book, we would have a scale of assigning the value that we feel 03 that we should be compensated for for that fair use. 04 Q. And when you talk about a research paper, I think you used 05 -- as an example, what would be the limits of your generosity 06 regarding fair use? 07 MR. ABOWITZ: Show my objection to the word 08 "generosity." 09 THE COURT: I think we may be getting a little bit 10 stretching on the realm of expertise in this area. 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'll move on. I'm almost done. 12 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Well, is what you described 13 generally similar throughout the book industry, with some 14 deviation, obviously? 15 A. Yes. Every publisher will have, you know, their own 16 policies, but, by and large, they would be following a similar 17 sort of approach because they have a vested interest in 18 protecting -- 19 Q. If I told you that a publisher had a fair-use policy that 20 commercial use could be 5,000 words, noncommercial use could be 21 25,000 words, how would you feel about that policy? 22 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I object. That's clearly 23 outside -- 24 THE COURT: All right. I don't think the question, 25 "How would you feel about it," but, "How does that compare to 00594 { 5:26:12pm} 01 others," I will permit an opinion in that regard. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Please show my objection as outside the 03 scope of the designated testimony on the pretrial order. 04 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect. 05 A. So, in my opinion, how would that be characterized in 06 relation to other presses? I would characterize it as very 07 generous. 08 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) And do you know of any example in 09 the publishing industry where 1,000 pages -- well, 800 pages of 10 a 2000-plus-page book were copied verbatim, has anyone ever 11 considered that fair use, to your knowledge? 12 A. Absolutely not, no. 13 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'm finished, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Cross, Mr. Abowitz? 15 MR. ABOWITZ: Why does everybody always want a drink 16 of water when I stand up? 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. It was a break moment, 18 it seemed like. 19 THE COURT: Total intimidation, Mr. Abowitz. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: I don't think so, Judge. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 24 Q. My first question, sir, is a very serious one. How do I 25 get a discount on Cambridge Press books? 00595 { 5:27:41pm} 01 A. Oh, well, that's what everybody asks. 02 Q. Strike that. You don't have to respond to that, unless 03 there's a way I can get it. 04 A. Excuse me. All right. 05 Q. When -- strike that. 06 Who first approached you to come to court and testify 07 about the matters that you've discussed here today? 08 A. Who first approached me? 09 Q. Who, yes. 10 A. You know, I'm sorry, I don't know if it was -- there was 11 some general discussion initially. I think it might have 12 been -- I don't know if it was Tonia or one of the lawyers. 13 Honestly, I don't remember exactly because -- I'm sorry. I 14 don't know, honestly. 15 Q. Have you ever done this before? 16 A. No, I never have -- I've never appeared as a -- 17 Q. Did you have a relationship with the person that first 18 contacted you to come here? 19 A. Unless it was one of the lawyers, and I don't think it 20 was. I think it was somebody that was a staff person at The 21 Urantia Foundation, but I could be wrong, honestly. But, yes, 22 if it were anybody other than the lawyers, because I didn't 23 know the lawyers before this event, but I do know, you know, 24 persons at The Foundation, you know, who are interested in this 25 book, yes. 00596 { 5:29:13pm} 01 Q. And how do you know them? Are you a Urantian? 02 A. I don't know what the term "Urantian" is referring to. 03 Q. Are you a reader of The Urantia Book? 04 A. Well, there again, I can say that honestly I have read 05 this book. I don't know that I would -- I'm not a member of 06 any organization associated with this book. And when you say 07 the word "reader," that to me is -- it's a loaded term, it 08 seems to me. I have read this book, yes. 09 Q. Why do you consider "reader" to be a loaded term? 10 A. Well, simply because it implies that I am reading this 11 book in some sort of a devotional sense. 12 Q. Well, I understand your discomfort like that. 13 Are you a reader of that book in a devotional sense? Let 14 me ask it that way. 15 A. No, I'm not. 16 Q. Are you a reader of that book in an academic sense? 17 A. I use it currently in reference only. 18 Q. In what sense? 19 A. Well, if I was referring to anything that I knew, based 20 upon having read this book, that had an interesting comment, 21 then I would refer to this book and refer to its contents, yes. 22 Q. What is your work? What do you do for Cambridge? 23 A. Well, I'm a senior account manager for Cambridge 24 University Press and my responsibility is managing those 25 businesses, those trading partners whose business extends to a 00597 { 5:30:58pm} 01 global arena. So, in other words, it's a few accounts that 02 constitute over 50 percent of our sales worldwide. 03 Q. How did you first become acquainted with the persons at 04 The Urantia Foundation? 05 A. The first acquaintance? 06 Q. Yes. 07 A. The first acquaintance was in approximately 1972 when I 08 went to The Urantia Foundation to inquire more about this book 09 and it was a lady best known as Christie, Emma Christensen, who 10 greeted me there. 11 Q. Have you ever been employed by The Urantia Foundation? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you maintained some acquaintanceship with members of 14 The Foundation since the early '70s? 15 A. Well, my acquaintance with anybody with The Urantia 16 Foundation, any staff person, has always been in and around 17 questions related to this book and its distribution, and for 18 whatever reason it seems to always come up at times when people 19 wonder about the copyright on this. 20 Q. And is it -- Were you compensated for your time coming 21 here today? 22 A. No, not that I'm aware of, no. 23 Q. You came from Montclair, New Jersey? 24 A. Yes. Yes, I did, right. I flew here. 25 Q. Did you buy your own plane fare ticket? 00598 { 5:32:36pm} 01 A. Well, The Urantia Foundation bought the plane ticket, but 02 because of the change of the schedule, we had to cancel that 03 ticket and buy another one at the last moment and I picked up 04 the tab for that one, yes, because otherwise I don't know 05 whether I'd be here. 06 Q. Are you going to be reimbursed for that? 07 A. If I asked for reimbursement, I'm sure that they would be 08 reimbursing me, yes. I haven't really discussed it with 09 anybody at this point because that happened only a few days 10 ago. 11 Q. With respect to your earlier comment about the fact that 12 The Urantia Book everybody knows is published by The Urantia 13 Foundation, were you aware that since you first made contact 14 with The Urantia Foundation, that there was, at one time, 15 another publisher of The Urantia Book? 16 A. Now, let me understand your question. You're saying since 17 I contacted The Urantia Foundation in 1972, you're asking if I 18 was ever aware that before that there was a -- 19 Q. Let me start over again. I'm sorry for the confusion that 20 I've caused. 21 Since 1972, or whenever it was you first visited The 22 Urantia Foundation, -- 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. -- are you aware that The Urantia Book has been published 25 by a publisher other than The Urantia Foundation? 00599 { 5:34:05pm} 01 A. Well, perhaps we need to define the word "publish." It 02 has been printed by others, yes. 03 Q. All right. That's a fair distinction. It has been 04 printed by others? 05 A. Right. In the context of contest over the copyright, yes, 06 it has been printed in the same way that this is. 07 Q. The term "Urantia Book" defines the book, it doesn't 08 define the source; isn't that correct? 09 A. I'm not sure what you're -- the question is: Does the 10 term -- the title "Urantia Book," are you saying does it define 11 the source? 12 Q. Let me put it more simply. 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. When I say "Urantia Book" to you, that means the book; is 15 that correct? 16 A. Well, I tend to think of it as a collection of papers, 17 actually, and I prefer the term "Urantia Papers" personally 18 because "The Urantia Book" is -- basically, that's a title of a 19 book. So I tend to think otherwise. But that's my own 20 personal opinion. 21 Q. When I say "Urantia Book" to you, it means Urantia Papers? 22 A. Yes, yes. 23 Q. It does not mean Urantia Foundation; correct? 24 A. Oh, no, no. 25 Q. Okay. Now, your testimony here today about this 00600 { 5:35:29pm} 01 competition and everything else is premised on the fact that 02 there is a valid copyright on The Urantia Book that is 03 presently owned -- that would be owned by The Urantia 04 Foundation; is that correct? 05 A. It's premised on the fact that as far as I know it is a 06 valid copyright until a court of law rules otherwise. 07 Q. All right. And should this jury and this Court determine 08 that there is no copyright and it's in the public domain, the 09 public domain in this country equates to competition, doesn't 10 it? 11 A. The public domain is not the competition, no. 12 Q. Well, your testimony was that the Jesus - A New Revelation 13 would compete with The Urantia Book? 14 A. Well, that's if it were sitting on the shelf next to it, 15 yes, it could conceivably do that. 16 Q. And if there is no copyright protection, that's the name 17 of every business in this country, isn't it, is competition? 18 A. If there is no copyright, there would be no book, because 19 copyright defines the existence and identity of a book. That 20 is the very definition of what a book is, is what is defined 21 and protected by copyright. 22 Q. And without the copyright, people can publish -- there's 23 no protection and whatever passes for competition occurred; is 24 that correct? 25 A. Whatever passes for competition? There would be no 00601 { 5:37:13pm} 01 competition because there would be no book. In my -- you're 02 asking me -- I'm afraid I'm just having to respond to tell you 03 my opinion on that, and that is that competition is a function 04 of a marketplace, and copyright in regards to intellectual 05 property is the very structure within which fairness operates 06 in a marketplace in the realm of book publishing. It is 07 commonly understood that when a copyright expires, and if a 08 book actually survives that long, and there's a sustained 09 interest, yes, it falls into what's called public domain. 10 Public domain is inseparable from copyright. It is a part of 11 the copyright provision and protection, yes. 12 Q. If there is no copyright, the Michael Foundation or Murray 13 Abowitz, Mr. Davis, can compete against Urantia Foundation by 14 publishing what was formerly protected by a copyright; is that 15 right? 16 A. When copyright expires, yes, anyone may produce a part or 17 whole copy of the existing book. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. Have a safe trip back to 19 New Jersey. 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No questions. 21 THE COURT: You may step down. You may be excused. 22 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 23 THE COURT: Do you have any additional witnesses this 24 afternoon, counselor? 25 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No more. 00602 { 5:38:56pm} 01 THE COURT: Let's recess then until 9 o'clock in the 02 morning. Is that agreeable? All right. 03 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll be recessed until 04 9 o'clock. I'll have you back in the jury assembly room, if 05 you will, just prior to that time. I'll also remind you again 06 of my previous admonition not to discuss this case. It does 07 appear that this case will go over into next week. I can't 08 hazard a guess yet how far, but we'll be here probably Monday 09 and Tuesday, at least, next week. I mention that so you'll 10 have some idea of your plans. 11 Everyone please stand and remain standing until the jurors 12 clear the courtroom. 13 (THE JURY WAS EXCUSED FROM THE COURTROOM, AFTER WHICH THE 14 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT:) 15 THE COURT: How many witnesses do you plan to call, 16 Mr. Hill, tomorrow? 17 MR. HILL: I think we're going to try to call about 18 six, five or six. 19 THE COURT: Five or six? 20 MR. HILL: Yes. I've given the names to them. 21 THE COURT: Can you hazard a guess as to how many 22 additional witnesses you'll have after those five or six? 23 MR. HILL: If we can get to all of them tomorrow, we 24 should be able to wrap up on Monday or Tuesday morning at the 25 latest. We might have maybe three or four witnesses. 00603 { 5:40:08pm} 01 THE COURT: That's what I want to know. I think my 02 lawyer wants to work with you on an instructions conference 03 this afternoon, hopefully not past midnight. 04 I'll see y'all at 9 o'clock in the morning. Court's in 05 recess. 06 (THE EVENING RECESS WAS TAKEN) 07 (PLEASE REFER TO VOLUME IV) 08 09 10