00164 { 5:23:56pm} 01 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 02 FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA 03 04 MICHAEL FOUNDATION, INC., 04 05 Plaintiff, 05 06 vs. CASE NO. CV-00-0885-W 06 07 URANTIA FOUNDATION, et al., 07 08 Defendants. 08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 12 HAD WEDNESDAY, JUNE 13, 2001 13 BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEE R. WEST, SENIOR JUDGE PRESIDING 13 14 JURY TRIAL - VOLUME II OF VII 15 16 17 18 19 A P P E A R A N C E S 20 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MR. ROSS A. PLOURDE 20 MR. MURRAY E. ABOWITZ 21 Attorneys at Law 21 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 22 22 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: MR. STEVEN G. HILL 23 MR. PETER SCHOENTHALER 23 MR. ERIC MAURER 24 Attorneys at Law 24 Atlanta, Georgia 25 25 00165 { 5:23:56pm} 01 INDEX OF VOLUME II 02 --------------------------------------------------------------- 03 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES (CONTINUED): 04 KENNETH RICHARD KEELER 05 DIRECT (Continued) (By Mr. Abowitz) ........... 168 05 CROSS (By Mr. Schoenthaler) ................... 274 06 REDIRECT (By Mr. Abowitz) ..................... 336 06 RECROSS (By Mr. Schoenthaler) ................. 350 07 FURTHER REDIRECT (By Mr. Abowitz) ............. 351 07 Witness Excused .................................... 351 08 08 HARRY McMULLAN 09 09 DIRECT (By Mr. Abowitz) ....................... 352 10 10 ********** 11 11 00166 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MORNING SESSION 02 WEDNESDAY, JUNE 13, 2001 03 --------------------------------------------------------------- 04 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF 05 THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 06 THE COURT: The jurors are on their way. They should 07 be here very shortly. 08 MR. ABOWITZ: Can we call Mr. Keeler and get him on 09 the stand so we can proceed? 10 THE COURT: Sure. Have him come on up. 11 I don't know if he's getting a little too close to that 12 mike or what but I'm having some difficulty hearing everything 13 he says, and the court reporter tells me he's having some 14 difficulty. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: I think he's tilting himself away from 16 the mike. 17 THE COURT: I don't want to harass him but he may 18 need to pull back just that much further from it. Just suggest 19 to him that we're having a little difficulty hearing him. 20 Good morning, sir. 21 THE WITNESS: Judge, good morning. 22 THE COURT: You can resume the stand. I'll remind 23 you you're under the same oath that was previously 24 administered. 25 I'm hard of hearing so I'm naturally having a little 00167 { 5:29:07pm} 01 difficulty hearing you, but the court reporter tells me he is 02 also. It may be that you're either too close to that 03 microphone or that you turn away from it occasionally when 04 you're speaking to the jury. I don't want to keep harping on 05 it, but, if you can, adjust it over that way a little when you 06 are speaking that way and it might help some. 07 THE WITNESS: May we test it right now? 08 THE COURT: You bet. You bet. Let's do that. I 09 think the small one is the one you want. It seems to be the 10 more powerful. 11 THE WITNESS: I think yesterday someone told me there 12 were puffings going on. Can you hear me all right now? Is 13 this better? 14 THE COURT: That's the best distance. 15 THE WITNESS: About the right distance here? 16 THE COURT: Yeah. Also, keep in mind that when you 17 look to the jury, as you can and should occasionally, be sure 18 to keep that microphone in mind. Would you do that? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. If I turn that way, then turn it 20 a little bit? Can you still hear me all right? 21 THE COURT: That will help some. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. 24 THE WITNESSES: Okay. Six inches. Thank you, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Ask the jurors to come on in, please, and 00168 { 5:29:07pm} 01 I'll ask everyone to please stand. 02 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 03 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 04 THE COURT: Be seated, please. 05 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, let me inquire if 06 anything occurred during the recess that would prevent any one 07 of you from continuing to serve as a fair and impartial juror 08 in this case? I gather not. 09 You may resume your examination. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT'D) 12 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 13 Q. Mr. Keeler, we discussed yesterday the situation that 14 caused the rift between Mr. McMullan and you, and Mr. McMullan 15 and The Foundation. I would like to pick up on that. 16 After that occurred, Mr. McMullan continued to be of 17 service and helpful to The Foundation, did he not? 18 A. To what are you referring? 19 Q. Well, let me show you exhibit 14, please. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Your Honor, rather than just 21 cart these books back and forth? 22 THE COURT: Sure, sure. 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, may I step over here? 24 THE COURT: Sure. 25 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you recognize that, sir, as an e-mail 00169 { 5:29:07pm} 01 that you got from Mr. Siegel? 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we 03 have it up here too. If it's more difficult -- I don't know 04 what's better to see. 05 A. This is almost three pages. 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Well, is that -- 07 A. It looks familiar, yes. 08 Q. -- something you got and it's addressed -- is this -- all 09 these people are trustees with the exception of Ms. Baney? 10 A. Say again. 11 Q. Yes, sir. Are all the -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- all the addressees, with the exception of Ms. Baney, 14 trustees of The Foundation? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And this is essentially a matter that Mr. McMullan was 17 willing to assist The Foundation on with respect to the 18 proofreading of its text of the Urantia Book; is that correct? 19 A. I think so. 20 Q. And he was helpful on that, wasn't he? 21 A. I don't know if we accept his offer of help, but I do 22 recall, I think that he made such an offer. 23 Q. And the assistance that Mr. McMullan offered is the 24 essence of that three-page e-mail; correct? 25 A. Yes, I think so. 00170 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Thank you. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for the admission of exhibit 03 14. 04 THE COURT: Without objection, it will be admitted. 05 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: May I retrieve it? 07 THE COURT: Pardon? Sure. 08 MR. ABOWITZ: How procedurally do you want to work 09 with this? Do you want to leave the exhibits up here? 10 THE COURT: Just maintain the ones that are admitted, 11 turn them over to Bev, unless -- 12 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I have a copy of the exhibits. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: She has a copy, so may I just 14 leave these -- 15 THE COURT: Sure, just leave them up there. 16 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, there was another matter that we 17 discussed yesterday, and that was the date of the completion of 18 the three parts of The Urantia Book. I'd like to show you, so 19 that we can clarify the day, I believe I had one and you had 20 one, and I confess your knowledge is superior to mine on those 21 dates and I just would like to clarify it for the Court and the 22 ladies and gentlemen of the jury. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have exhibit 43, please? It's 24 document number 1299. It's the second one. Again. Again. 25 That's it. 00171 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) That's a document that's on Urantia 02 Foundation letterhead, is it not? 03 A. It appears to be, yes. 04 Q. It is signed by Ms. E. L. Christensen, who at the time was 05 the secretary of The Urantia Foundation? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. The number 1299 denotes it came out of the files of The 08 Urantia Foundation? 09 A. I think so. 10 Q. And it's dated January 31st, 1974? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission, Your 13 Honor. 14 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection. 15 THE COURT: Be admitted. 16 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Would you read, please, the last 17 paragraph of that letter. 18 A. "The first three sections of the book were completed in 19 1934. Section IV on the life and teachings of Jesus was 20 completed in 1935. This is stated in the book itself." 21 Q. Does that comport with your understanding? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Thank you. 24 Now, with respect to the work itself, we discussed, and I 25 believe left here yesterday, with you testifying that the book 00172 { 5:29:07pm} 01 was in the writing of the patient/contact person; correct? 02 A. We're talking part IV? 03 Q. We're talking the whole book. 04 A. It was in the subject's handwriting. 05 Q. All four parts? 06 A. I don't know. 07 Q. Well, yesterday you told me that everything in that book, 08 The Urantia Book, started out in the handwriting of the patient 09 contact person. 10 A. I'm not sure about part IV. I think it did but I'm not 11 sure about part IV. 12 Q. Do you have any evidence that would establish a different 13 conclusion, that is, that every part of that book was not at 14 one point in the handwriting of the patient/contact person? 15 A. No, I have no such evidence. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 Now, with respect to that writing, would you agree that 18 the writing of the patient/contact person that was generated 19 was -- could not have been related to hypnotism? 20 A. In 1962, Dr. Sadler told me it was unrelated to hypnotism 21 or any other psychic phenomenon that he was familiar with. 22 Q. Which would include trances? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Which would include telepathy? 25 A. Yes. 00173 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Which would include double personality? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Which would include automatic writing? 04 A. Yes. These are terms I'm familiar with but I suppose I 05 would have to be a psychiatrist to give you a definitive -- 06 Q. All right. May I show you exhibit 57, please. And I 07 apologize for the copy. 08 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, I'd appreciate if they 09 don't put the page that lists all of the letters that are in 10 the summary exhibit because it has a title. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: Okay. Will you please -- that's an 12 oversight, Judge. I apologize for that. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm looking at documents 240 and 15 document 1845. 16 May I, Your Honor? 17 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let's start with 240 and then we'll move 18 to 1845. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: Is that 240? 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 240. 21 MR. ABOWITZ: Can you do something to that to enhance 22 the date on there, please? 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Excuse me. Do you have a 24 different Bates number? 25 MR. ABOWITZ: Pardon me? 00174 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: I can't hear this, gentlemen. 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'm sorry. 03 THE COURT: Can you stipulate and agree what the date 04 is or not? 05 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I just don't have a copy of the 06 exhibit. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: It's in our exhibit 57. I'll be glad 08 to provide another copy to you. 09 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Can you make out that date, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And can you tell us -- it looks like April 11th, 1968? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that on Urantia Foundation stationery? 14 A. I can't tell from this copy. It appears as though it is. 15 Q. Would you look at the number down at the bottom? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Does that number indicate it came from the files of The 18 Urantia Foundation? 19 A. I suppose so. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission, Your 21 Honor. 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection. 23 THE COURT: To be admitted. 24 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Would you, please, sir, look at the last 25 paragraph of that letter. Incidentally, it's signed by Emma -- 00175 { 5:29:07pm} 01 E. L. Christensen, secretary? 02 A. I cannot make out a signature on my copy. 03 Q. Well, this is the -- it reads, "Very truly yours, E. L. 04 Christensen, secretary"; correct? 05 A. True. 06 Q. As a matter of clarification, this is Ms. Christensen that 07 was a member of The Contact Commission? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And she subsequently became a trustee of the board of The 10 Urantia Foundation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that signature, that title of secretary, is that 13 secretary of the board of trustees? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. So she's speaking for The Foundation? 16 A. I think so. 17 Q. And would you read the last sentence of that letter, 18 please. 19 A. "The book did not come through a medium or by automatic 20 writing or any of the well-known psychic phenomenon. It was 21 written by superhuman personalities, all of whom are described 22 in the book." 23 Q. Would you please look at the next document, 18 -- I think 24 it's 43. Can you make out that number at the bottom? 25 A. 43 or 45. 00176 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. And is that number -- this is on -- do you believe this is 02 on Urantia Foundation stationery? 03 A. I think so. 04 Q. And, again, it has -- purports to have been signed by 05 E. L. Christensen, secretary, on behalf of The Foundation? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. And it's dated July 19th, 1968? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Would you read the first sentence of the second paragraph, 10 please. 11 A. "In response to your letter of July" -- it's 18 or 13 -- 12 "we are sending you, under separate cover, a supply of 13 brochures containing excerpts from The Urantia Book. We are 14 also enclosing several copies of a summary of the book, as well 15 as a paper setting forth its basic concepts." 16 Q. Okay. So she is sending somebody -- somebody inquired and 17 she's responding to them? 18 A. It would appear as much. 19 Q. And please read the next sentence. 20 A. "This revelation was not received through a psychic, 21 clairvoyant or any such medium. I think a careful" -- I'm 22 having trouble reading my copy -- 23 Q. That's sufficient. 24 A. -- "careful reading of the references" -- your copy is 25 better than mine but I'll continue with mine. 00177 { 5:29:07pm} 01 "I think a careful reading of the references contained on 02 the back of the dust cover" -- did you want me to stop? 03 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) No, go ahead. You can continue. 04 A. -- "back of the dust jacket, particularly those regarding 05 the Reserve Corps Destiny and the Secondary Midway Creatures 06 should satisfy your questions as to origin. We consider The 07 Urantia Book a religious document." 08 Q. Thank you. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you please remove the exhibit. 10 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, when Mr. McMullan first advised you 11 that through one of his foundations that Jesus - A New 12 Revelation was going to be published, what was your reaction? 13 A. I felt disappointed. 14 Q. With respect to the publication itself, did you consider 15 that to be improper because it destroyed the unified nature of 16 The Urantia Book? 17 A. That's a fairly accurate representation of my thinking. 18 Q. And as a matter of fact, The Foundation had taken a 19 consistent position over the years, had it not, that the book 20 was a unified work and one really had to read the whole book to 21 understand it thoroughly; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And, as a matter of fact, the board of trustees wrote a 24 letter to its friends taking that position, did it not? 25 A. I don't know to what you're referring -- 00178 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. All right. 02 A. -- but it would not surprise me. We have consistently, 03 since The Foundation started in 1950, taken that possession. 04 Q. Who is Seppo Kanerva? 05 A. The manager of translations for Urantia Foundation. 06 Q. And Georges -- help me with the pronunciation of his name. 07 A. Michelson Dupont. 08 Q. He is a trustee? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And was on August 29th, 1999? 11 A. Yes. A Frenchman, by the way. 12 Q. A what? 13 A. He is a Frenchman. Georges Michelson Dupont. 14 Q. That's why I asked you for help with the pronunciation. 15 Does he pronounce it with its French intonation or has he been 16 Anglicized? 17 A. He Anglicizes it when he's here. 18 Q. And doesn't when he's over there? 19 A. True. 20 Q. He's a resident of France? 21 A. True. 22 Q. Any communication between Mr. Kanerva and Mr. Michelson 23 Dupont would have been essentially the business of The Urantia 24 Foundation if they were discussing the book itself? 25 A. Yes. They are personal friends but most of their 00179 { 5:29:07pm} 01 interaction deals with matters relating to The Urantia Book. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: May we see exhibit 84, please? 03 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you recognize that as a communication 04 between the two people we were discussing? 05 A. Say again. 06 Q. Do you recognize this as a communication between the two 07 people we have been discussing? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And this refers to a draft of a letter from The Foundation 10 to its friends? 11 A. That appears to be the case. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission, Your 13 Honor. 14 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: To be admitted. 16 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I'd ask you, sir, to look at the second 17 paragraph beginning with "Every reader." Would you read that 18 for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury. 19 A. "Every reader agrees that no alterations must be made in 20 the revelation; it must be preserved as it is for the benefit 21 of the current generation and the generations to come, for the 22 benefit of this part of the world as well as for the others. 23 In the wisdom and knowledge the revelators gave us this 24 revelation in four parts, each part being interrelated with the 25 other three; and this makes the revelation an indissociable 00180 { 5:29:07pm} 01 whole." 02 Q. Do you agree with that description, that the revelation is 03 an indissociable whole? 04 A. Well, if I had to say "yes" or "no", yes. 05 Q. And when they speak of the revelation, they're talking 06 about the contents and The Urantia Book; correct? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Thank you. 09 Were you in Helsinki, Finland in 1998 for a meeting of the 10 International Urantia Association conference? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know a Mr. Gard Jameson? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And in 1998, at the time that the International Urantia 15 Association conference took place, what was his role in The 16 Foundation? 17 A. He was a trustee of Urantia Foundation. 18 Q. Just as an aside, is there a list someplace of who served 19 as a trustee of The Foundation and when they served? 20 A. I have seen such a list. 21 Q. How far back does it go? 22 A. To the beginning, I think. 23 Q. Let me show you, sir, what's been marked as exhibit 142. 24 Do you recognize this, sir, as the text of a talk by 25 Mr. Jameson at that International Urantia Association 00181 { 5:29:07pm} 01 conference? 02 A. May I see a copy? 03 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. 04 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, can we take it down 05 from the board until he lays a foundation? 06 THE COURT: Pardon? 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Can we take the document down from 08 the board until he lays a foundation? 09 THE COURT: Sure. 10 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you recognize that as the speech 11 given by Mr. Jameson? 12 A. It appears to be. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission, Your 14 Honor, 142. 15 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I would only object to the extent 16 it appears to be a speech by Mr. Jameson. He didn't say he's 17 familiar with the document. 18 THE COURT: Restate -- or examine -- Lay your 19 predicate further, counsel. 20 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Mr. Keeler, did Mr. Jameson give a 21 closing speech at that conference? 22 A. He gave a speech. I don't know if it was a closing 23 speech. 24 Q. He did give a speech? 25 A. That's my understanding. 00182 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Do you recognize that as the text of the speech he gave? 02 A. It appears to be. 03 THE COURT: And his position again, reestablish that, 04 counselor, for my benefit, with regard to The Urantia 05 Foundation, the speaker. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes. 07 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Who was the speaker? Is he a trustee? 08 A. Yes. 09 THE COURT: And he was a trustee at the time? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. It will be admitted. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 13 You may put the document up, please. May I have the 14 second page, please? 15 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me address you to this paragraph on 16 page 2 of 4, please. The paragraph that begins with, "There 17 are those." See that, sir? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It says, "That those, who in a spirit of impatience would 20 violate" -- "There are those, who in a spirit of impatience 21 would violate the integrity of the text by splitting it up." 22 And he gives an example, does he not, of what a publication 23 such as Jesus - A New Revelation would mean, does he not? 24 A. I think so. 25 Q. Well, read it until -- so that you may respond to the 00183 { 5:29:07pm} 01 question. 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. All right. And is it accurate to state, sir, that he is 04 using the Mona Lisa example to refer to The Urantia Book? 05 A. In an analogous way. 06 Q. Yes. So, he is saying that you cannot cut the Mona Lisa, 07 The Urantia Book, into four pieces and display only a quarter 08 of it at a time; is that correct? 09 A. That's what he says. 10 Q. All right. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you scroll the document, please. 12 Please keep going. And the next page, please. I think that's 13 all I have of that document. Thank you. 14 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) In that analogy, The Urantia Book, 15 according to Mr. Jameson, a trustee at the time, could not be 16 presented in any separate fashion, no portion of it could be 17 presented separately without violating the view of the trustees 18 and The Foundation that this was an inviolate work, that it was 19 whole? 20 A. Yes, and we felt that it would be a violation of our 21 declaration of trust which states that we shall perpetually 22 preserve inviolate the text of The Urantia Book and to maintain 23 absolute and unconditional control of all production and 24 reproduction of The Urantia Book and translation thereof. 25 Q. In its entirety? 00184 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Is that correct? 03 A. That's the way we interpret that. 04 Q. Thank you. 05 Now, did The Foundation issue a press release on July 06 22nd, 1999 to its friends indicating that part IV was illegally 07 printed? 08 A. You might have to show me the document. My recollection 09 is that we did release some announcement. 10 Q. Did or did not? 11 A. Did. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: May I? 13 THE COURT: Identify for the record what document you 14 handed him. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: I handed you exhibit 87. 16 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Does that appear to be the text -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- of that release? 19 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have the document, please? We 20 move for its admission. 21 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I object. I believe it's 22 hearsay. I don't believe Mr. Keeler was copied on it. 23 THE COURT: Let me see a copy of the document, if I 24 might, please. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: Can you just look at this one, Judge? 00185 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Yeah, just let me look. It will be 02 quicker. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm not talking about the other text. 04 I'm talking about the text of the press release. 05 THE COURT: Your objection is that the press release 06 is hearsay? 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: As contained in that document, 08 Your Honor. That's not the press release. That is an e-mail 09 that has a press release in it. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: My question was: Did he recognize it 11 as the true text of the press release? 12 THE COURT: And your answer was? 13 THE WITNESS: It appears to be. 14 THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection. You may 15 recite the press release. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: May the document be admitted, Judge? 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you show the document, please. 19 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Please turn your attention, sir, to the 20 paragraph that begins with the words, "We see." You say in 21 2, "That it violates the statement that you just made, that it 22 does not preserve the text, the entire text, inviolate." And 23 that means the entire book; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Thank you. 00186 { 5:29:07pm} 01 And The Foundation would take the same approach with 02 respect to anyone that published any single part of that book; 03 is that correct? 04 A. No. 05 Q. Well, if I went out and organized a foundation and 06 published part I, would you consider that to be a violation of 07 your tenant that the work is inviolate? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Part II? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Parts I and II? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Parts I, II and III? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Part III? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Parts III and IV? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So, as long as I didn't publish the whole thing, I would 20 have been violating the tenant that the whole work is 21 inviolate? 22 A. I'm sorry. I'm confused. 23 Q. All right. You agree, do you not, that in our 24 hypothetical discussion, that if I publish any single part of 25 that book, part I, part II, part III, part IV, or any 00187 { 5:29:07pm} 01 combination of the parts that did not include all of them, I 02 would be violating your tenant that the book is a work in its 03 entirety and that it is a work of a whole and that that is 04 inviolate? 05 A. Yes, but we have a fair-use policy that permits people 06 to -- 07 Q. Well, I just want you to address the question I asked 08 you. We'll discuss that later. 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. You did not consider Jesus - A New Revelation to be a fair 11 use? 12 A. True. 13 Q. You would not consider it to be a fair use if in our 14 hypothetical discussion I published any single part of that 15 book, part I, part II, part III, part IV? 16 A. True. 17 Q. You would not consider it to be fair use if I produced any 18 part of that book in combination with every other part unless I 19 published the whole thing; correct? 20 A. I suppose so. 21 Q. Thank you. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have a minute to get a document, 23 Judge? 24 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, let me show you what is marked as 25 part of exhibit 46, document 1055. I'm sorry. 146. 146. 00188 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Right. Let me start all over. Document 1055, exhibit 146. 02 Got it? 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yeah. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: Sorry, Judge. Too many numbers. 05 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Please look at that, sir. Do you 06 recognize that as a letter on Urantia Foundation letterhead? 07 A. It appears to be. 08 Q. Does it bear a number 1055 that would indicate it came 09 from Urantia Foundation files? 10 A. No. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 12 A. Oh, I was looking at the number on the second page which 13 is 1056. 14 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me rephrase my question then. 15 Do you recognize it as a document of two pages bearing 16 numbers 1055 and 1056 that would indicate it came from the 17 files of The Urantia Foundation? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And who purportedly signed it? 20 A. Thomas A. Kendall. 21 Q. And he was at the time? 22 A. President of Urantia Foundation. 23 Q. The date of the letter, please, sir? 24 A. October 14th, 1975. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission, Your 00189 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Honor. 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection, Your Honor. 03 THE COURT: Be admitted. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: May we display the exhibit, please? 05 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I'd ask you, sir, if that letter 06 accurately reflects the policy of The Foundation or did it at 07 the time with respect to the issues we've been discussing of 08 copyright and trademark? 09 A. I think so. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you scroll it up, please. Hold 11 it, hold it, hold it. Would you back it up to this -- 12 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) This document states that the Urantia 13 teachings must be free from compromise, distortion and mixture 14 with evolutionary error; is that correct? 15 A. True. 16 Q. Did you analyze Jesus - A New Revelation in the context of 17 that statement? 18 A. I didn't. 19 Q. Did anybody at The Foundation? 20 A. I think so. 21 Q. All right. So you can't tell us today whether the work 22 itself is free from compromise? 23 A. I cannot. 24 Q. You can't tell if it's free of distortion? 25 A. I cannot. 00190 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. You can't tell us if it's mixed with evolutionary error? 02 A. I cannot. 03 Q. The book, is it not, exactly what appears in papers 121 04 through 196 of The Urantia Book? 05 A. I believe that it is. 06 Q. All right. If that's true, is it free from compromise? 07 A. I suppose. 08 Q. Is it free from distortion? 09 A. If you look only at part IV, then I would agree. 10 Q. That's what the book is, isn't it, Jesus - A New 11 Revelation? 12 A. It's to the last -- it's 1,000 pages -- he has taken 1,000 13 pages from The Urantia Book -- 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may I just have an answer 15 to my question? 16 THE COURT: Well, restate your question, counselor, 17 for my benefit. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: Sure. 19 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Jesus - A New Revelation is free from 20 distortion in its text, is it not? 21 A. Well, if I had to say yes or no, I would say no. 22 Q. Why? 23 A. Because it's only part of the book. 24 Q. But the part of the book that's presented is free from 25 distortion, is it not? It's an exact reproduction of what is 00191 { 5:29:07pm} 01 in papers 121 through 196. 02 A. I think that it is. I think so. 03 Q. All right. 04 A. It's an exact reproduction. I think that it is. 05 Q. All right. And if it is, with respect to what's 06 presented, it's free of any distortion; correct? 07 A. You could say that. 08 Q. And it is not mixed with any evolutionary error; is that 09 correct? 10 A. I suppose so. 11 Q. Isn't it true, sir, if it meets the test of that analysis, 12 that it would be a fair use of the publication? 13 A. Not in my mind. 14 Q. I understand. 15 Now, let's move down a couple of paragraphs. 16 I call your attention to the paragraph that says, "By 17 protecting the copyright." One of the things the trustees want 18 to ensure is that it is the real thing, not an imposter, that 19 the text of Jesus - A New Revelation, is the real thing and not 20 an imposter; is that correct? 21 A. If I had to say it's the real thing or an imposter, it's 22 an imposter. 23 Q. All right. 24 A. And I will explain, if you would like. 25 Q. You have said it's an exact reproduction? 00192 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. True. 02 Q. And you're saying -- 03 A. I believe it to be. 04 Q. All right. You know of no evidence to indicate that it is 05 not? 06 A. True. 07 Q. And you're saying it is an imposter because it is not 08 published in a book that you published with the other three 09 parts; is that correct? 10 A. Well, there was several parts to what you just said. In 11 general, I agree with what you said. 12 Q. Thank you. 13 Now, please move down to the next paragraph. "The next 14 time." "The next time." 15 Have you analyzed Jesus - A New Revelation for its quality 16 or lack of it? 17 A. As I said before, I have not. 18 Q. Has anybody at The Foundation? 19 A. I think so. 20 Q. Are you aware of their conclusion? 21 A. I think so. 22 Q. Well, are you or are you not? Did somebody say to you, 23 "Mr. Keeler, with respect to our policy regarding trademark and 24 copyright, we looked at Jesus - A New Revelation and determined 25 that it was of quality"? 00193 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. You said did someone say that to me? 02 Q. Yes. 03 A. No one said that to me. 04 Q. All right. And did anyone indicate to you that it 05 measured up to the high standards of Urantia teachings? 06 A. No one has indicated that to me. 07 Q. And if it's an exact reproduction of part IV of The 08 Urantia Book, it could not fall short of the high standards of 09 the Urantia teachings, could it not? 10 A. True. 11 Q. Thank you. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: May I get some water? 13 Would you care for some, Mr. Keeler? 14 THE WITNESS: No, thank you. 15 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me move on. 16 The Urantia Book is not a periodical, is it? 17 A. I don't see it that way. 18 Q. All right. It was never published in installments? 19 A. Not by Urantia Foundation. 20 Q. And was never published and made available to the public 21 on a periodic basis; in other words, one part here, one part 22 there, one part there? 23 A. Not to my knowledge. 24 Q. Even consecutively, it was not issued with respect to 25 paper 1 through paper 196 on successive weeks or in successive 00194 { 5:29:07pm} 01 months? 02 A. Not to my knowledge. 03 Q. And the only way it was made available was at one time in 04 that one book by The Urantia Foundation? 05 A. Well, not one time. We published many editions. The only 06 way that The Urantia Foundation has made it available has been 07 in book form with all four parts together. 08 Q. And it was made available only on that basis by The 09 Urantia Foundation? 10 A. I think so. 11 Q. All right. The book is not an encyclopedia, is it? 12 A. It is encyclopedic. It has religious content, historic 13 content, zoology, astronomy, psychology. It is a veritable 14 encyclopedic work. 15 Q. All right. What you're saying is it covers a number of 16 different subjects over the course of its 2000-plus pages? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And have you ever seen an encyclopedia that did not have 19 an index? 20 A. I don't know. I suppose not. 21 Q. That book didn't have an index until Mr. McMullan put one 22 together, did it? 23 A. Well, we have a concordance but not -- but not an index. 24 Q. My question was: It did not have an index until 25 Mr. McMullan developed one? 00195 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. It did not have an index published by Urantia Foundation. 02 Q. All right. So, for instance, if I picked up that book and 03 I wanted to reference a specific point, there's no place that I 04 can find where I could find that specific point in the book; 05 correct? 06 A. Yes, there is. 07 Q. Well, for instance, if I asked you to find a reference for 08 me to Sicily in that book, could you do that? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. How could you do it? 11 A. Two ways. Well, several ways. Two are coming to mind. I 12 would go to my computer and type in the word Sicily. 13 Q. And the next way? 14 A. I would go to the concordance published by Urantia 15 Foundation and I would look up the word Sicily. 16 Q. Now, let's talk about the second one. The concordance is 17 not part of the book; right? 18 A. True. 19 Q. The concordance was published when? 20 A. About 1993, '4 or '5. 21 Q. So, from 1955 to 1992, '3, '4 or '5, that technique was 22 not available to find Sicily; correct? 23 A. Not as a work published by Urantia Foundation. 24 Q. All right. Was it available by others? 25 A. Yes. 00196 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Who? 02 A. I know of an individual in Venezuela. There was something 03 close to an index called a concordex, a combination of a 04 concordance and an index. 05 Q. And when was that published? 06 A. Published in '70s, '60s or '70s. I'm not sure. 07 Q. Again, not a part of the work? 08 A. A derivative work. 09 Q. But not part of The Urantia Book? 10 A. True. 11 Q. When The Urantia Book was published, it did not have an 12 index or any other means for you to be able to find a given 13 subject, such as Sicily; is that correct? 14 A. Well, there was no index, no concordance, no concordex. 15 Q. The answer to my question? 16 A. Well, there were other means. If you were smart enough -- 17 if you were smart enough, you could go directly -- you have an 18 index, there's a lot of information in The Urantia Book I could 19 go directly to because there is an index inside my brain. 20 Q. By virtue of reading it many times before? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But if I am a first-time reader and I picked up that book 23 as it is, there is no way that I could find any reference to 24 Sicily in that book; is that correct? 25 A. True. 00197 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. All right. Now, also, have you ever seen an encyclopedia 02 that did not have attribution to scholars who put the works 03 together? 04 A. I don't know that I have. 05 Q. Have you ever seen an encyclopedia that was not arranged 06 in alphabetical order? 07 A. I suppose I haven't. 08 Q. Is The Urantia Book arranged in alphabetical order? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know where an encyclopedia that exists where the 11 people who put it together were not paid? 12 A. I know of no such encyclopedia, but I have insufficient 13 information. In my opinion, they were probably paid. 14 Q. Nobody was paid to produce The Urantia Book; correct? 15 A. That's true. It was all voluntary effort to the best of 16 my knowledge. 17 Q. Now, if one went into the library, assuming it had The 18 Urantia Book in its collection, it wouldn't be classified under 19 encyclopedia, would it? 20 A. It would not. 21 Q. It would be classified under religious works - other? 22 A. Usually. I think almost always it is. 23 Q. So it is a religious work? 24 A. It is a religious work and much much more. 25 Q. I understand. 00198 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 02 THE COURT: You may. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Exhibit 47, please. 04 Documents 1537 and 1362. 05 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Murray, if I may -- 06 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes, sir. 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, if I may address 08 counsel. 09 Your index to these letters does not refer to it by Bates 10 stamp number. Would you mind telling me who this is from and 11 the date? 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes. I'll have Mr. Keeler tell us that 13 in a second after he reads the document. 14 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Mr. Keeler, let's start with Bates 15 number 1537. May I have a date, please? 16 A. July 15, 1966. 17 Q. And do you recognize that as a document that at the time 18 was published on Urantia Foundation stationery? 19 A. It appears to be. 20 Q. And does the number 1537 indicate to you that it came from 21 The Urantia Foundation files? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who purportedly signed it, please, sir? 24 A. Ms. E. L. Christensen. 25 Q. Thank you. 00199 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel, as you know, we've redacted 02 the addressee which makes it a little difficult. 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Thank you. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission, Your 05 Honor. 06 THE COURT: Any objection, counsel? 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: One moment, Judge. 08 No objection. 09 THE COURT: Be admitted. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you put the exhibit up, please. 11 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) This is the same Emma Christensen that 12 we were talking about. How long was she the secretary to the 13 board? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Do you have an educated guess, estimate? 16 A. 20 years. 17 Q. Can you give us the approximate dates? 18 A. 1950 until 1970. 19 Q. I'd ask you, please, sir, to look at the second paragraph 20 of the letter, the last two sentences. Would you read those to 21 the jury. 22 A. The Urantia Book is primarily a religious tome. It was 23 written to save souls." 24 Q. Thank you. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you take the exhibit down, 00200 { 5:29:07pm} 01 please. 02 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Give me the date of the next letter. 03 A. June 14th, 1971. 04 Q. On Urantia Foundation letterhead? 05 A. I see no letterhead at the top. 06 Q. Is it signed by a person you recognize to be a person in 07 authority The Foundation? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And does it bear numbers that would indicate it came from 10 Urantia Foundation files? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. By whom is it purportedly signed? 13 A. Edith E. Cook. 14 Q. Now, that's a different name. Who is Ms. Cook? 15 A. She was at that time the treasurer of Urantia Foundation. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission, Your 17 Honor. 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: To be admitted. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: May we have the exhibit, please. 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) And how long was Ms. Cook the treasurer 22 of The Foundation? 23 A. Maybe 15 years. 24 Q. And can you give us the range, please? 25 A. 1970 to 1985. 00201 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Was there a procedure at The Foundation that when they 02 received -- when it, The Foundation, received correspondence 03 from interested people, that someone in authority of The 04 Foundation would respond to those letters? 05 A. Would you repeat the question? 06 Q. Yes. 07 Was it a procedure or policy of The Foundation to have a 08 person in authority respond to inquiries made by interested 09 people? 10 A. I think so. 11 Q. Did you ever respond to any of those letters? 12 A. I've only been a trustee -- since I've become a trustee? 13 Q. Yeah. Well, you couldn't respond to them as a trustee 14 before that, could you? 15 A. Certainly not. 16 Q. All right. 17 A. But there are other individuals in the office who were not 18 exactly in positions of authority who responded to 19 correspondence. We have someone in the office today who's an 20 employee but not a trustee and he is arguably not in a position 21 of authority. But before I was a trustee, I did not, and since 22 I've become a trustee, I have replied to a few. 23 Q. The persons who respond who are not persons of authority 24 do so with the acquiescence and approval of the board, do they 25 not? 00202 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. I suppose so. 02 Q. All right. But we don't have that problem here because 03 Ms. Cook is the treasurer? 04 A. True. 05 Q. I would just ask you to read the last paragraph, please, 06 to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury. 07 A. "After reading these, I am sure you will realize that The 08 Urantia Book is a religious book and has nothing to do with 09 so-called psychic phenomena." 10 Q. Thank you. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Judge? 12 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, we talked yesterday about the 13 original copyright of The Urantia Book indicating that The 14 Urantia Foundation was the author of the book. Do you recall 15 that discussion? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that's your understanding and belief and knowledge; 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. And that was, again, so we can put it in a 21 time perspective, when? 22 A. The book is copyrighted at the time of publication, which 23 was October 12th, 1955, and that copyright was registered in 24 January of 1956. 25 Q. So we're talking 1956? 00203 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. Well, in the front of the book it says, "Copyrighted 02 1955." 03 Q. Well, then, let's use 1955. 04 And that copyright remained in effect until 1983 when it 05 was renewed; correct? 06 A. True. 07 Q. And we talked yesterday and you indicated that it was 08 renewed in 1983 as a work for hire; correct? 09 A. I think so. 10 Q. All right. What occurred, if you know, between 1955 and 11 1983 to change the characterization of that work that 12 The Urantia Foundation made to the copyright office? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Was there litigation that involved The Foundation between 15 the years 1955 and 1983 in which the issue of the copyright was 16 raised? 17 A. I think that there was. 18 Q. And if I indicated to you that there was, in 1974, a case 19 filed by Urantia Foundation in the federal court in California 20 against William Burton King and the Urantian Research -- 21 Urantian school of Research and Doris George and a number of 22 other people, you would recognize that; right? 23 A. Barely. That was before I became a trustee. 24 Q. I understand. 25 Do you know the position that The Urantia Foundation took 00204 { 5:29:07pm} 01 in that case? 02 A. You would have to refresh my memory. 03 Q. All right. I'll do that. 04 Who was Mr. Root, Lloyd C. Root? 05 A. He was, I believe, the intellectual properties lawyer for 06 Urantia Foundation in the first 20 or 25 years, in the early 07 days after the book was published, and I believe before the 08 book was published. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel, I have Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 Number 29, which is The Urantia Foundation brief in that case. 11 Strike that, counsel. That's not correct. 12 Well, let's move to that and we'll cover them both. 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) There was also a lawsuit filed by 14 Urantia Foundation in the Western District of Michigan, was 15 there not? 16 A. I don't know. Would you refresh my memory? To what are 17 you referring? 18 Q. I'm referring to Urantia Foundation vs. Robert Burton. 19 A. I know that there was a lawsuit between Mr. Burton and The 20 Urantia Foundation. 21 Q. And do you recall what position Urantia Foundation took in 22 that litigation -- 23 A. No. 24 Q. -- with respect to The Urantia Book? 25 A. No. I was not a trustee at the time, and even now we 00205 { 5:29:07pm} 01 leave much of those matters to our legal experts and 02 paralegals. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel, I have Plaintiff's Exhibit 29, 04 which is the brief in reply. 05 May I, Your Honor? 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, this is the plaintiff's response in 07 that case, Urantia vs. Burton? 08 A. It appears to be. 09 Q. Urantia Foundation is styled as the plaintiff? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. This is the plaintiff's brief? 12 A. It appears to be. 13 Q. I would ask you, sir, if in this case that the -- that the 14 patient/contact personality, that the position was taken by The 15 Urantia Foundation that the patient/ -- 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, may I approach? 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 19 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, my only objection is 21 that he's making a statement Urantia Foundation took -- 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I can't hear you. 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: He's making a statement Urantia 24 Foundation took a position. It was a summary judgment motion. 25 We had to permit them to argue their position and defeat them 00206 { 5:29:07pm} 01 for summary judgment if we got summary judgment. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: You write it down, it's a position. 03 THE COURT: Well, we're going -- he's going to have a 04 right to explain it was a legal position taken for the purposes 05 of summary judgment and so forth. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: That's fine. 07 THE COURT: And I'll have to instruct that he's 08 absolutely correct in that regard. 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Would you? 10 THE COURT: And so forth. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: But it is a position. 12 THE COURT: Do you want me to do that? 13 MR. ABOWITZ: It's a position that they espouse. 14 THE COURT: It's a position that they took because on 15 motion for summary judgment you have to take certain positions 16 with regard to that thing and that they have the right to do 17 that. That is not their -- 18 MR. ABOWITZ: I don't object to their right to do 19 that. 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Will you give an instruction to 21 the jury? 22 THE COURT: You prepare an instruction and I'll 23 consider giving it. 24 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I would rather the instruction is 25 contemporaneous with the argument. 00207 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Well, I understand what you'd rather do 02 but I'm going to let them go ahead and proceed -- 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: It's your courtroom. 04 THE COURT: -- and then you prepare a proposed 05 instruction that I'll give at some subsequent time. I don't 06 want to attempt to do it offhand. You prepare a position and 07 I'll admonish them with regard to that. 08 MR. SCHOENTHALER: All right. 09 THE COURT: I will tell them that there will be a 10 subsequent instruction with regard to, quote, taking the 11 position for the purpose of arguing on the motion for summary 12 judgment. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you like to do that before I ask 14 him? 15 THE COURT: Yes, I'll tell them. Well, have him read 16 that position and then I'll explain. 17 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 18 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 19 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, let me turn your attention, please, 20 to page 9. 21 MR. ABOWITZ: May we have that on the screen, 22 please? Would you scroll it down, please? That's fine. Let's 23 hold it there. 24 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me turn your attention, please, sir, 25 to the last sentence on that page, "Since such writer." 00208 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Do you agree with me that the writer referred to in that 02 paragraph is the patient/contact personality? 03 A. I suppose. 04 Q. Well, -- 05 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, I would request under 06 Rule 1.6 -- or 106 that he reads the entire paragraph. 07 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 08 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Under 106 -- 09 THE COURT: Okay. He's asking a question with regard 10 to the writer first. We'll focus on that right now and then 11 we'll get into your suggestion. 12 A. It would appear that that's what that is saying. 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) All right. And this paragraph, 14 beginning with the words, "The plaintiff," here, we've 15 identified the plaintiff as The Urantia Foundation; correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And we've identified this as a position taken in that 18 lawsuit? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And it says that you agree that the writer, the 21 patient/contact personality, had a common law copyright in what 22 he had written. 23 A. That's what that says. 24 Q. Do you agree that the only way he could have that is if he 25 was the author? 00209 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. I don't know. 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Objection, Your Honor. Calls for 03 a legal conclusion. 04 THE COURT: Sustained. 05 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you have any understanding, sir, of 06 how the writer could acquire a common law copyright? 07 A. It's a legal matter. No. 08 Q. And this is consistent with your view and belief and 09 knowledge that he, the patient/contact personality, transferred 10 such copyright orally to Dr. William Sadler, Sr.? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Well, didn't you tell us that yesterday? 13 A. That what? That he transferred? 14 Q. Yeah. 15 A. He transferred such copyright orally? Well, you'd have to 16 read what I said yesterday, but I'm not seeing it. That's not 17 my understanding from my conversation with Dr. Sadler. What 18 actually happened was something different. 19 Q. But, nonetheless, this is the position that's represented 20 in this legal pleading before the board? 21 A. It would appear so. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Do you have something? 24 THE COURT: It's all right. Go ahead. We'll take up 25 the other matter when he reexamines his own witness here. 00210 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Are we at a place to take a break, 02 Judge? 03 THE COURT: This would be a good place, if you're 04 ready. 05 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a 15-minute 06 recess. Be back in the jury box at 25 of 11:00 according to 07 that clock on the wall up there. 08 I'll remind you again of my previous admonition not to 09 discuss this case. Come back into the jury room so we can save 10 a little time in assembling and so forth. Be in the same seats 11 you are at 25 of 11:00. 12 Everyone please stand until the jurors clear the 13 courtroom. 14 (THE JURY WAS EXCUSED FROM THE COURTROOM, AFTER WHICH THE 15 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT:) 16 THE COURT: Counsel might have a hand at drafting a 17 cautionary instruction with regard to the motion for summary 18 judgment and then show it to counsel and see if they have any 19 problems with it, and I can then give that when we get back in, 20 if it's appropriate. 21 Another way to do it would be to allow you to bring the 22 matter up when -- if you're going to examine this witness on 23 your -- I don't know if they call it cross-examination because 24 it's going to be cross-exam of an adverse witness, but you 25 could reorient him with regard to that at that time. 00211 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I intend to do so, Your Honor, but 02 I would still like the instruction. 03 THE COURT: You give me a proposed cautionary 04 instruction and I'll consider giving it or letting you take it 05 up at a subsequent time, one or the other. 06 All right. Court's in recess. 07 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 08 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 09 THE JURY:) 10 THE COURT: You may resume, Mr. Abowitz. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. May I approach 12 the witness? 13 THE COURT: Did you have something you want to 14 present? 15 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes. Mr. Plourde has objection to 16 it. Mr. Plourde has objection to one of the paragraphs. I 17 think we should approach, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. Come on up. We'll take that 19 up. 20 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 21 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: He does not have an objection to 23 the first paragraph. 24 THE COURT: And your objection is to what? 25 MR. PLOURDE: To the last paragraph, Judge. I don't 00212 { 5:29:07pm} 01 think it's true that -- 02 THE COURT: There's nothing wrong with that. That's 03 exactly what happened. Now, if you all want this in, that's 04 the instruction I'm going to give. 05 MR. PLOURDE: Judge, they weren't -- I mean -- 06 THE COURT: If you want this argument, that's their 07 position. If you want it in, they've asked the question and 08 they've never gotten the answer. 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: They showed him the reply brief we 10 filed up on the screen. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: That's fine. 12 THE COURT: Okay. When do you want it? 13 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'd like it now. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may we make a record? 15 THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead and do it now. I'm going 16 to give it exactly as it is. 17 MR. PLOURDE: Okay. If you would just note our 18 objection to the giving of that. I think the last paragraph is 19 particularly wrong. In any event, note our objection. 20 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 21 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 22 THE COURT: The Court will give the jury a cautionary 23 instruction with regard to the point being made that that was 24 the position taken in previous litigation. When a party argues 25 in favor of a motion for summary judgment, which is a motion 00213 { 5:29:07pm} 01 that a party brings before the Court asking for judgment as a 02 matter of law, the moving party must give the opposing party 03 the benefit of all reasonable inferences that may be drawn from 04 the evidence. In Urantia Foundation vs. Burton, the case that 05 has been discussed by counsel with the witness, Urantia 06 Foundation had moved for summary judgment asking the Court for 07 judgment as a matter of law as to the validity of its copyright 08 in The Urantia Book. In order to succeed on Urantia 09 Foundation's motion for summary judgment, Urantia Foundation 10 was required to accept the proposition that the subject of the 11 contact patient was the author." 12 You may proceed. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: For the record, Your Honor, I forgot to 14 move for its admittance, 29. 15 THE COURT: Any objection? 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Which exhibit? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: 29. 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection. 19 THE COURT: Be admitted. It is admitted. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) We were discussing the lawsuit by 23 Urantia Foundation against William Burton King. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Could you put that up on the screen, 25 please? 00214 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) It's the motion for summary judgment 02 memorandum of points. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: I don't think that's it. 04 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 29? 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me. We'll do it this way. 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, do you recognize that as the 07 lawsuit we were discussing? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Urantia Foundation is the plaintiff in that case? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. The document bears a certification of the archives of the 12 United States Government that that's a true and correct copy of 13 that document? 14 A. Appears to be. 15 Q. And it is represented on the first page that Urantia's 16 lawyer in that case was Mr. Root; correct? 17 A. True. 18 Q. And the pleading is signed by a representative of that 19 firm on behalf of Urantia Foundation? 20 A. True. 21 Q. Do you recall the position that was taken by The Urantia 22 Foundation in this litigation? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What was it? 25 A. Our position in this litigation and all litigation has 00215 { 5:29:07pm} 01 been that the authors of the Urantia Book are celestial; 02 however, in this particular case, Mr. Burton -- and this 03 relates to what the Judge said a minute ago -- Mr. Burton 04 contended that the sleeping subject was the author of the book 05 and we said -- we accepted that. We said, "Okay, we will 06 suppose that you're right even if he were the author of the 07 book." We believe it's celestially authored, but even if he is 08 the author of the book, our contention was that we would still 09 own the copyright because The Contact Commission was always in 10 possession of the papers. The Contact Commission solicited the 11 questions, The Contact Commission received the papers, dealt 12 with the papers, published the papers. There was never anyone 13 who challenged The Urantia Foundation -- excuse me -- The 14 Contact Commission and then the successor to The Contact 15 Commission was The Urantia Foundation. 16 Q. I understand. 17 A. There's an old principle that, what, possession is 18 nine/tenths of the law, and we contended in that case and have 19 always contended that The Contact Commission and the successor 20 to The Contact Commission, Urantia Foundation, was in 21 possession of the papers from beginning to end. 22 Q. They weren't in possession of the papers when they were 23 being written, were they? 24 A. Well, soon after. Dr. Sadler told me the morning after 25 papers appeared -- 00216 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Please, sir, answer my question. They were not in 02 possession of the papers when they were written; is that 03 correct? 04 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, I think the witness is 05 trying to answer the question. 06 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer the question. 07 A. Well, I guess not in the first few hours. They would 08 appear, my understanding is, in a drawer, I think, in a desk, 09 and it was in Dr. Sadler's office. 10 Q. Let me ask the question again. 11 Did The Contact Commission have possession of the papers 12 when they were being written? 13 A. Not at the absolute instant that they -- I don't know but 14 that's my understanding, they did not. 15 Q. Thank you. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Your Honor? 17 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I would ask you, please, to turn to page 18 51. Let me see if I can do it this way. 19 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Murray, is this still 29? 20 MR. ABOWITZ: Yeah, but page 51. 21 MR. PLOURDE: 126. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: No, no. It's 126. I'm sorry. 23 Can you see that? Okay? It's like adjusting the trim 24 tabs on an airplane. 25 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you have that in front of you, sir, 00217 { 5:29:07pm} 01 page 51? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. All right. The Urantia Foundation admits in this position 04 that it took that for the purposes of the copyright, that the 05 writer is the author and the owner of the common law copyright; 06 is that correct? 07 A. That's what it says here, uh-huh. 08 Q. So he is the author -- the patient, contact person, is 09 author, owner of the common law copyright? 10 A. That was the position that Mr. Burton took and we were 11 requesting summary judgment and we said, for the sake of 12 argument, we will -- 13 Q. May I interrupt? This is Burton King. Did you understand 14 that? This is not Burton. 15 A. Burton King. Yes, sorry. 16 Q. All right. This is the written position taken by The 17 Urantia Foundation in this case? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Thank you. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: May I retrieve the exhibit? 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, the position that The Foundation 22 took with the renewal was that the book was a work for hire; 23 we've talked about that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that position was taken in 1983 which was after the 00218 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Burton King and the Burton lawsuits; is that correct? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And did The Urantia Foundation maintain that view in the 04 Maaherra litigation? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. That it was -- 07 A. At the beginning of the Maaherra litigation. 08 Q. Did it change? 09 A. There was some movement from calling it a work for hire to 10 being a composite work. 11 Q. All right. What is it today? What is the position today? 12 A. That it is a composite work. 13 Q. Is it the position today that it's a commissioned work? 14 A. A commissioned work? What do you mean? 15 Q. I'm sorry? 16 A. Commissioned? 17 Q. Yes. Was the work commissioned? 18 A. Would you define "commissioned"? 19 Q. Well, let me back up. 20 Do you have an understanding of what Urantia Foundation's 21 position is in this lawsuit? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And it is what? 24 A. That The Urantia Book is a composite work. The Urantia 25 Book itself is a composite presentation by many beings. 00219 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. All right. Do you know if The Urantia Foundation is 02 taking the position that it is -- that it is a commissioned 03 work, as your lawyer said here the other day in his opening 04 statement? 05 A. Well, if he said that, that is our position. 06 Q. All right. Do you have any understanding of that? 07 A. Well, some, I guess, but I would need to be -- to have my 08 memory refreshed as to what exactly "commissioned" means. 09 Q. Well, please tell us your understanding. 10 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, I think this is really 11 getting into the area of -- 12 THE COURT: Sustained. I believe his understanding 13 doesn't make any difference, counselor. What his understanding 14 of it is, it's a legal position they're taking and the counsel 15 will express that legal expression or has in the opening 16 statement. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: May I ask what his understanding of 18 "commissioned" is, Your Honor? 19 THE COURT: What relevance does it have to this 20 lawsuit, counselor? 21 MR. ABOWITZ: That's the position they're taking here 22 and I would like to know if he knows what that is. 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, he's not asking for 24 his understanding. He's trying to get a legal position out of 25 him. 00220 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: He's what? Pardon? 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: He's asking for his legal 03 conclusion of what "commissioned" means. 04 THE COURT: Then I don't know what the difference 05 between his legal conclusions and his understanding would be, 06 counselor. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: Well, he doesn't have a legal 08 conclusion, Judge. 09 THE COURT: Well, he said he doesn't have any 10 understanding either. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: All right. That's fine. 12 THE COURT: Go ahead. Move on to something else, 13 counselor. You're trying to get something from an adverse 14 witness that we can spend a lot of time on but I don't think 15 it's relevant to the issues in this lawsuit. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 17 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) You indicated earlier that The Urantia 18 Foundation is of the view that spiritual beings initiated 19 communication through the patient/contact personality? 20 A. Yes, but let me make a distinction. I regard everyone in 21 this room as being a spiritual being, so I feel more 22 comfortable with the term "celestial beings." 23 Q. And what's the distinction? 24 A. Meaning invisible to us, nonphysical in the way that we 25 think of physical. 00221 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Not human; is that a -- 02 A. Nonhuman. Celestial beings. 03 Q. Do you agree that the patient/contact person voluntarily 04 appeared to place himself under the examination of Dr. Sadler 05 for whatever malady he was suffering at the time? 06 A. That's what I was told by Dr. Sadler. 07 Q. And this wasn't a case where Dr. Sadler went out and 08 looked for this person and said, "You're the one and I'm going 09 to use you for this purpose"? 10 A. True. 11 Q. And there isn't any evidence that you know of, is that 12 correct, that Dr. Sadler or anyone else in The Contact 13 Commission told the celestial beings what messages to convey 14 that resulted in this writing? 15 A. True, but I would make a qualifying statement -- 16 Q. Well, -- 17 A. -- if I were asked for such a statement. 18 Q. -- your lawyer will let you qualify it. 19 And you are not aware, are you, of any evidence that 20 Dr. Sadler or anyone else told the celestial beings what to 21 communicate to the patient/contact personality? 22 A. By asking questions. No questions, no papers. 23 Indirectly, they told through asking -- they told the celestial 24 beings what to write. 25 Q. They asked. They were questions; right? 00222 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. They asked questions. 02 Q. All right. Now, they had no control over how the 03 questions were answered; is that your -- 04 A. True. 05 Q. They had no control over whether or not someone chose to 06 answer or not to answer the questions? 07 A. I agree with that statement. 08 Q. All right. And you know of no evidence that indicated 09 that Dr. Sadler or The Contact Commission or anyone that could 10 be considered to be a predecessor of The Urantia Foundation 11 told the celestial beings or directed the celestial beings that 12 this was the end of the book? 13 A. I know of no such evidence. 14 Q. And if the communication was the basis of the book, 15 communication from celestial beings was the basis for the book, 16 the decision as to how much and what and when to end it was all 17 the decision of these celestial beings? 18 A. I agree. 19 Q. Now, the book was finished -- we had that exhibit -- '35, 20 but it wasn't published until 1955; is that correct? 21 A. True. 22 Q. And is one of the reasons it wasn't published -- is your 23 view that one of the reasons it wasn't published that you were 24 waiting for the celestial beings to tell you what the right 25 time was? 00223 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. That's one reason. 02 Q. And is it accurate, sir, that in your view of these 03 things, that the celestial beings controlled the process of 04 producing the book? 05 A. For the most part, but in cooperation with The Contact 06 Commission. 07 Q. Well, let's address that. You've indicated that there was 08 no control over how they answered the questions? 09 A. True. 10 Q. There was no control by Dr. Sadler or The Contact 11 Commission or anybody that was a predecessor to The Urantia 12 Foundation that dictated to these celestial beings what would 13 be in the book? 14 A. True. 15 Q. Same introduction, how long the book would be? 16 A. True. 17 Q. Same introduction, how many papers it would consist of? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Same question, what the subject of the papers were? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Same introduction, the content of the specific papers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the direction, if you will, with respect to 24 The Urantia Foundation's belief and views and knowledge of how 25 this took place is that the direction came from the celestial 00224 { 5:29:07pm} 01 beings to the patient/contact personality and told him to write 02 and to stop writing? 03 A. Yes. 04 I want to clarify something. I'm feeling uncomfortable 05 about that answer. The only thing I know is Dr. Sadler told me 06 it was in the handwriting of the sleeping subject. 07 Q. I think you made that clear. 08 A. All right. 09 Q. Let me ask it a different way so maybe I can clear up your 10 concern. 11 Dr. Sadler -- Neither Dr. Sadler nor the Contact 12 Commissioners, nor anyone else that was a predecessor of The 13 Urantia Foundation, controlled the writing process, whatever it 14 was? 15 A. I agree with that. 16 Q. All right. Does that make your more comfortable? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. All right. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the bench, Your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel, I'm going to talk about the 22 Root exhibit. 23 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 24 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 25 THE COURT: This is about what? 00225 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: The Root -- the lawyer Root, Lloyd 02 Root. 03 THE COURT: Go ahead. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: We're going to offer this into 05 admission. It is a poor copy. It is -- 06 THE COURT: I can't read it. 07 Okay. You want to introduce it for what purpose? 08 MR. ABOWITZ: To show that the position of The 09 Urantia Foundation, that this is not a collective work. 10 THE COURT: And he was an attorney for The Urantia 11 Foundation in the Maaherra -- or in the -- 12 MR. ABOWITZ: No, no. In the Burton King. This is a 13 document that is filed with the United States Copyright 14 Office. It is an ancient -- 15 THE COURT: What's your position with regard to Root? 16 MR. ABOWITZ: May I finish my foundation? 17 It is an ancient document. They admitted it is genuine. 18 And I think under the exception -- the ancient document 19 exception to hearsay, it should be admissible. 20 MR. HILL: Well, Your Honor, the document is -- I 21 don't have any problem -- 22 THE COURT: I'm having a little difficulty -- 23 MR. HILL: I don't have any problem with it coming 24 into evidence but I don't think they can discuss an ancient 25 document with someone who's not familiar. Mr. Keeler wasn't on 00226 { 5:29:07pm} 01 the board. He wasn't a trustee at that time. There's no 02 evidence in this case one way or the other that Mr. Root was 03 even authorized or what he was writing this in response to. 04 This is not a garden variety letter to the United States 05 Copyright Office. So we object to putting an ancient document 06 in front of this witness solely for the purpose of having him 07 read the contents. 08 If Your Honor permits them to do it, I'm going to come 09 back later and ask that what's good for the goose be good for 10 the gander. 11 THE COURT: All right. Now, let me ask you this: 12 Are you agreeing to the admission of this document but 13 requesting that counsel read it rather than this witness read 14 it? Is that what you're saying? 15 MR. HILL: If that's how -- Your Honor, this is 16 probably the first of a number of ancient documents -- 17 THE COURT: You don't want him to appear in any way 18 as sponsoring this document or identifying it either; is that 19 correct? 20 MR. HILL: I don't think he can -- 21 THE COURT: But you're not objecting to the 22 admissibility of it? 23 MR. HILL: -- answer any questions about it. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm sorry? 25 MR. HILL: I don't think he has ever seen it. I 00227 { 5:29:07pm} 01 don't think he can answer any questions about it. 02 THE COURT: It's admitted without objection. If you 03 want to read it, you read it yourself and ask for no comment 04 from him with regard to what -- 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Can I ask him if he understands that 06 that was done at the time? 07 MR. HILL: Your Honor, am I to understand -- I'm 08 objecting to Mr. Abowitz reading the ancient document into the 09 record unless we have an agreement that for an ancient 10 documents that are introduced as they're introduced, they can 11 be read both ways. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Sure. 13 MR. HILL: Okay. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 16 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 17 THE COURT: The document will be admitted and you may 18 publish it to the jury, if you wish to do so, counselor. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 20 May I have exhibit 9, please? 21 Can you put some background on it? 22 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm authorized to tell you that the 23 Court has admitted this exhibit 9. It is a very poor copy. We 24 have gone through it and produced exhibit 10 which is a reading 25 of that document and it is, if I may, a much better rendition 00228 { 5:29:07pm} 01 of the document. 02 May I have exhibit 10, please? 03 I would ask you to scroll the document, please. That's 04 fine. Would you highlight the part that says, "The Urantia 05 Book." No, the next paragraph. 06 This document says, in part, "The Urantia Book is not a 07 collective work, since the material therein was not in 08 existence before the arrangement of it was placed in tangible 09 form, and it was in existence prior to publication thereof only 10 in manuscript form." 11 Would you scroll up to the beginning, please. 12 This is the affidavit of Lloyd C. Root. 13 THE COURT: Can you ladies and gentlemen hear him? 14 MR. ABOWITZ: This is the affidavit of Lloyd C. Root 15 who states that he is the attorney for The Urantia Foundation. 16 Would you give us the second page, please. 17 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, may I? 18 MR. ABOWITZ: Stop there. There we go. 19 And it is signed by Lloyd C. Root and subscribed February 20 of 1980. 21 Would you go back to the first page, please. Highlight 22 the last paragraph. 23 The affidavit further states in the last sentence on the 24 first page, "That there was a common law copyright in the said 25 manuscript which was owned by the person who wrote it." 00229 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Thank you. 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, may I address counsel? 03 THE COURT: Pardon? 04 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I address counsel for a 05 second? 06 THE COURT: Sure. 07 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Mr. Keeler, -- 08 A. Yes, sir. 09 Q. -- you told us earlier that Mr. Root was a long-time 10 lawyer -- a lawyer, who, for a long period of time, represented 11 the interests of The Urantia Foundation in copyright matters? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. He was a distinguished lawyer? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Well, there's a plaque -- 16 A. I hope so. 17 Q. Yeah, okay. There is a plaque to his memory, is there 18 not, in The Urantia Foundation building? 19 A. True. 20 Q. In appreciation for his services? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 Now, with respect to the work for hire, have you 24 personally -- strike that. Let me start again. 25 With respect to the work for hire position, have you ever 00230 { 5:29:07pm} 01 communicated to anyone with respect to that position? 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor -- well, no objection. 03 Sorry, Murray. 04 THE COURT: Go ahead. You may answer, if you can. 05 A. I don't know. 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Did you, on June 25th, 1999, send an 07 e-mail regarding this position to one Toby Tapp? May I show 08 that to you? 09 A. Yes, please. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Counselor, it's 89. 11 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Would you please read that. 12 A. Read what? 13 Q. I would like you to read the -- are you satisfied that 14 that's a communication you made? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And made it on or about the date it's listed there? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And made it as a trustee of The Urantia Foundation? 19 A. Well, I was a trustee of Urantia Foundation. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move it be admitted, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Have any objection? 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Sure. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the clerk, Your Honor? 25 We're trying to do some housekeeping. 00231 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Sure. 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection. 03 THE COURT: Be admitted. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you put it up on the screen, 05 please. 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) What was the purpose for this 07 communication? 08 A. I think I received an e-mail from Mr. Tapp. 09 Q. Who is Mr. Tapp? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you people normally communicate with you on e-mail? 12 A. I don't know that -- some people do. 13 Q. All right. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you scroll it, please. 15 Hold it. 16 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let me address you, please, sir, to the 17 paragraph beginning, "Toby." That's a statement that you made 18 and it's correct that in 1983 The Foundation chose to renew the 19 copyright characterizing the book as a work for hire; correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And then you explain that. "This was done because William 22 S. Sadler, Jr.," -- and that's not Dr. Sadler; correct? 23 A. True. 24 Q. That's Dr. Sadler's son? 25 A. True. 00232 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. -- "was also on The Contact Commission"? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. -- "working for hire for The Foundation as it were, 04 designed the first 66 pages of The Urantia Book, the pages 05 numbered at the bottom with roman numerals, and that these 66 06 pages comprise of the fly sheet, the title sheet, the parts of 07 the book, the titles of the papers and the contents of the 08 book." 09 Did I read that correctly? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is that the only basis for The Foundation of choosing to 12 renew the copyright under the characterization of work for 13 hire? 14 A. I don't know. 15 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, that calls for a legal 16 conclusion. 17 THE COURT: All right. Overruled. 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) All right. 20 A. After I wrote that, I wished that I had cleared it with 21 our lawyers. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, under 106, can I have 24 the three paragraphs preceding the one Murray outlined read 25 into the record, please? 00233 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Counsel, do you have any problem? 02 MR. ABOWITZ: No. 03 THE COURT: All right. 04 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you want to read it into the record, 05 sir? 06 A. Do I want to -- 07 Q. Would you, please, read what your lawyer wants in the 08 record from this document. 09 A. You want me to read -- 10 THE COURT: Which paragraphs, counselor? 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Starting with, "In 1993." Well, 12 no, starting with the paragraphs before that. "My simple 13 response." 14 THE COURT: Can you see that? 15 THE WITNESS: You want me to read beginning, "In 16 1993"? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: I think that's what your lawyer wants 18 you to read. 19 MR. SCHOENTHALER: The paragraph before that. "My 20 simple response." 21 THE COURT: The outlined paragraph. "My simple 22 response." 23 A. "My simple response to your question is that The 24 Foundation did not lie in 1983 when it renewed the copyright as 25 a work for hire. 00234 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Was that an accusation that was made? 02 A. Is that an accusation? 03 Q. No. Was that an accusation that this gentleman made when 04 he e-mailed you? 05 A. I don't recall. 06 Q. All right. Please proceed. 07 A. "In 1993, Thomas A. Kendall, a former trustee and 08 president of Urantia Foundation, who served on the board of 09 trustees for 20 years, delivered a talk on the copyright and 10 trademarks in which he said the following. 'Throughout the 20 11 years I served on the board of trustees of Urantia Foundation, 12 every lawyer we consulted was a specialist in the field of 13 copyright or mark law. We were completely forthcoming and 14 shared everything we knew about the origin of the book. The 15 trustees did not conspire to hoodwink the copyright office in 16 the renewal of the copyright in 1983. No reputable attorney 17 colluded with The Foundation to perpetrate a fraud." 18 Q. I don't mean to be smart, but, as a lawyer, the first 19 thing that comes to me is how about an unreputable attorney 20 colluding with you? It was not meant to leave that open, was 21 it? 22 A. I suppose. 23 THE COURT: Is that a question? I'm sorry. I didn't 24 understand it. Is that a question? 25 MR. ABOWITZ: No, I'll withdraw the question, Judge. 00235 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: It's not a question. You can't withdraw 02 not a question. The jury will disregard counsel's comments. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 04 THE COURT: You bet. 05 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Mr. Root would be one of these reputable 06 lawyers; correct? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. So that what Mr. Root said in this affidavit would be 09 essentially something that was forthcoming? 10 A. I suppose so. 11 Q. And we can agree it was probably true? 12 A. From his point of view. 13 Q. All right. Well, you relied on your lawyers for this 14 copyright service, did you not? 15 A. True. Very true. 16 Q. And he was one you relied on for a long time? 17 A. Well, I wasn't a trustee then, but The Foundation did. 18 Q. I meant collectively. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, let me ask you a question. We talked a little bit 21 yesterday about the oath that was taken by -- you tell me who 22 took this oath of secrecy. 23 A. The Contact Commissioners. 24 Q. How about members of The Forum? 25 A. Also the members of The Forum. 00236 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. And the Contact Commissioners, I think as we said 02 yesterday, became The Foundation, essentially? 03 A. The Foundation was the successor of The Contact 04 Commission -- 05 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you put that back up, please. 06 A. -- according to Dr. Sadler in a conversation I had with 07 him in 1962. 08 MR. ABOWITZ: Could you highlight the three 09 paragraphs we were talking about, please. 10 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) This statement that is attributable to 11 Mr. Kendall as the president said, "We were completely 12 forthcoming and shared everything we knew." 13 Could he do that under that oath of secrecy? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Well, all of you, I have concluded, take that very 16 seriously; is that true? 17 A. I believe that the members -- that The Contact Commission 18 and the members of The Forum took their oath very seriously. 19 Q. And you know of no one who violated that oath, do you? 20 A. No. 21 Q. All right. Thank you. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: That's all I have. 23 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, how did you become aware of these 24 trademarks to which Urantia Foundation has taken exception with 25 -- oh, strike that. 00237 { 5:29:07pm} 01 How did you become aware of the domain sites that had been 02 registered by Mr. McMullan and The Michael Foundation? 03 A. The executive director, I think, of Urantia Foundation had 04 informed me and the other trustees. 05 Q. Was that Ms. Baney? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Do you know how she came upon that information? 08 A. No. 09 Q. Did you ask? 10 A. No. She may have revealed at the time how she did. 11 Q. Did you -- What was your reaction to that? 12 A. I felt sad. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Because since I have been a trustee, there's been the 15 board of -- The Urantia Foundation has been involved in two 16 litigations, one with Kristen Maaherra and -- well, I guess the 17 one with Kristen Maaherra, that it went on for years and I 18 wanted all litigation to cease, and it looked like this could 19 be the beginning of more litigation. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may I approach the bench? 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 23 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm at a point now where I 25 would like to discuss with Mr. Keeler the compromise thing that 00238 { 5:29:07pm} 01 we took up yesterday that you ruled basically that we would 02 have to come and talk to you before we discussed it. 03 THE COURT: What do you intend to establish by him in 04 regard to that? 05 MR. ABOWITZ: I intend to establish by him that there 06 was a basis upon which the differences could have been 07 compromised since he says that he was saddened and concerned, 08 that he foresaw another period of litigation for The Urantia 09 Foundation. 10 THE COURT: Well, why would that in any way make 11 compromise and offers of settlement, what he said about that, 12 why would that make that admissible in this case? We haven't 13 got any issue of maliciousness or anything of that nature in 14 this lawsuit. Your only argument for the exception to the rule 15 that compromise, settlements and offers are not admissible is 16 that it would somehow affect motive? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: Bad faith. 18 MR. PLOURDE: It would negate bad faith. 19 THE COURT: We haven't got any issue of bad faith. 20 He said he was saddened by the fact that they were going to 21 have some litigation here. That doesn't bring -- nothing in 22 that makes that an offer of compromise of that or this or 23 anything else admissible in evidence. The rule is that you 24 don't get that stuff in. I don't know of any -- I don't know 25 of any basis for letting it in by what he said. 00239 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: May we address it again if the issue of 02 bad faith or malice does -- 03 THE COURT: Well, in other words, we're not to that 04 point now so I sure don't believe in letting it in now, and 05 we'll take it up again if you want to when that issue does 06 arise. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you. 08 THE COURT: We've got the rule. I want you to 09 understand, we've got the rule that it does not come in 10 normally unless something triggers an exception to it, and I 11 haven't heard anything to that effect yet. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 13 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 14 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 15 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) When you received that information from 16 Ms. Baney, did you or any members of the board of trustees 17 speak with Mr. McMullan? 18 A. May I add something to your previous question? 19 Q. No. 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. You don't have a recollection of speaking to Mr. McMullan? 22 A. I did not. 23 Q. Is that something that you would undertake generally in a 24 circumstance like that where somebody did something that 25 saddened you because a course of litigation was on the horizon? 00240 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. Well, there are two trustees of Urantia Foundation who 02 were close associates. In fact, one of the trustees said, 03 "Mr. McMullan is my best friend." 04 Q. Who is that, sir? 05 A. Mo Seigel. And communication between Mr. McMullan and the 06 board of trustees has been through two trustees who are 07 friends, one a very close friend, and associates because they 08 were all leaders in the organization we spoke about yesterday 09 as originally the Urantia Brotherhood and then the organization 10 that became The Fellowship. 11 Q. And the other one would be Mr. Jameson, Gard Jameson? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So, is it accurate to state then that any communication 14 based upon the information you got from Ms. Baney would 15 probably have been through Mr. Siegel or Mr. Jameson? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Not you? 18 A. True. 19 Q. Do you recall a discussion with the board that, "Should we 20 do something and find out what Mr. McMullan is up to or find 21 out if we indeed have to embark upon litigation?" 22 A. I'm sure we -- 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, if I may, I'm afraid 24 this is getting into an area of the attorney/client. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: I don't mean to -- 00241 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: No, he just said was there any discussion 02 and his answer was, "Yes." That's all. Now, when we get into 03 that -- 04 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I don't know what board meeting 05 he's talking about and attorneys were present at certain board 06 meetings. 07 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. You may 08 proceed, counselor. 09 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir? 10 A. Would you repeat the question? 11 Q. I'm not sure I can. 12 A. There was discussion on the board, I think. 13 Q. All right. And we're not interested in discussions that 14 involved your lawyers. 15 A. We're not -- say again. We're not interested -- 16 Q. When I ask a question, I am not soliciting a response that 17 includes any discussions or any confidential information that 18 you got from one of your lawyers. Do you understand that? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. All right. What was the nature of the discussion? 21 A. We've had a policy since Mr. Myers ceased to be the 22 president of The Foundation and on the board of trustees to 23 speak with persons with whom we have any disagreements. 24 Q. I didn't quite -- the policy was that you could or could 25 not speak? 00242 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. No, no. That we would. 02 Q. And that was the discussion, that you would speak? 03 A. We would try everything that we could to peacefully settle 04 beginning with one-on-one, we call it the Jesus grievance 05 procedure, go to a person one-on-one, and if that doesn't work, 06 then in a small group of two or three other persons, and then 07 if that doesn't work out, then proceed on using some other 08 technique. 09 Q. You used the word "settle." Was that what -- That's what 10 its purpose was, to see if this dispute could be resolved by 11 settlement? 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, may I approach? 13 THE COURT: It's not necessary. He can discuss 14 generally what happened at the board meeting. He's been 15 instructed not to talk about anything that he discussed with 16 the attorneys, but anything else with the board meeting, he can 17 testify to, counselor. 18 Now, anything that has to do with advice from counsel, 19 you're cautioned -- you don't have to do that because that 20 would be a violation of your attorney/client privilege, so you 21 don't have to testify. But with regard to the policy of the 22 board and the discussion with the other board members, you can 23 testify. 24 Now, with that cautionary discussion, we don't need a -- 25 MR. ABOWITZ: That was the preface of my question, 00243 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Judge. I didn't want to get -- 02 THE COURT: I understand that. I'm not criticizing 03 you, counselor, but I'm admonishing counsel so we won't have 04 numerous bench conferences about settlements, about anything 05 else, discussions of attorney/client or compromise and 06 settlement because none of that is admissible or permissible in 07 this proceeding. 08 Now, go ahead. 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, may I add one thing? 10 THE COURT: Pardon? 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I please add one thing? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'm afraid that he's getting into 14 areas of conversation in anticipation of litigation. 15 THE COURT: Well, you can be concerned about it but 16 I'm going to let this gentleman ask these questions and then 17 you object if a question asked is objectionable or if an answer 18 given is objectionable, you may make your -- I'm not going 19 to -- well, I'm not going to say anything further. 20 Go ahead, counselor. 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I believe the question was that this 22 procedure that you outlined for us was essentially designed to 23 resolve the situation between The Urantia Foundation, Harry 24 McMullan, and Michael Foundation? 25 A. Yes. 00244 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. And that occurred? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And what resolution were you looking for? 04 A. A peaceful, nonlitigious resolution. 05 Q. And in -- 06 A. Hopefully a win/win. 07 Q. You wanted your way and you wanted it without litigation; 08 is that correct? 09 A. Well, win/win, yeah, we wanted it our way but we wanted to 10 try to make it so that Harry would have his way and we would 11 have our way. But I suppose that's the reason we're here 12 today, because we've both been rather firm in our positions and 13 we want a judge to -- or a jury to decide, resolve our 14 differences. 15 Q. Let me get back to my question. 16 Other than win/win, what is the position that would have 17 satisfied you with respect to the three domain names in 18 question? 19 A. Well, I've had some legal -- that definitely involves 20 legal counsel. 21 Q. All right. Then I withdraw the question. I'm not 22 interested in delving into that. 23 What were the -- What are the three domain names in 24 question? Do you know them? 25 A. No. 00245 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Do you know if the domain names involve the name Urantia 02 Book? 03 A. Are you asking me if one of them is The Urantia Book? 04 Q. One or more of them, yes. 05 A. Well, they all contain the word, "Urantia." We have -- 06 We own the registered marks and we've registered the marks 07 "Urantia" and "Urantian" and Mr. McMullan was using those words 08 in domain names which he took out. 09 Q. Urantia Foundation has permitted that use in the past, has 10 it not? 11 A. I don't -- know. I didn't say "no." I said, "I don't 12 know." 13 Q. All right. Let me show you, please, sir -- 14 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Your Honor? 15 It's exhibit 65, counsel. Documents 215, 1157, -- 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: One more time, please. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: 215, 1157, 860, 1968. 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, if I may have a 19 moment? 20 THE COURT: Pardon? 21 MR. SCHOENTHALER: If I may have a moment to locate 22 the exhibits? 23 THE COURT: Sure. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: May the witness look at these 25 while he's -- 00246 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Sure. 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, we have an 03 authenticity and hearsay objection. We have objection based on 04 authenticity and hearsay. 05 THE COURT: Okay. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: One or all of them? 07 MR. SCHOENTHALER: All of them. 08 MR. ABOWITZ: All right. May I, Your Honor? 09 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, let me show you document 215 and 10 216. Would you tell me what that is? 11 A. It is a -- or appears to be a letter from Urantia 12 Foundation to Ms. Brandt. 13 Q. And it is signed by? 14 A. Thomas A. Kendall. 15 Q. And it bears a numbered designation that would allow us to 16 conclude it came from Urantia Foundation files? 17 A. True. 18 Q. And this is a letter that Mr. Kendall, as president of The 19 Urantia Foundation, would have written in the normal course of 20 business of The Foundation; is that correct? 21 A. True. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: We would move for admission. 23 THE COURT: The hearsay objection will be overruled 24 and it will be admitted. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: May I put it up on the screen? 00247 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Sure. 02 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have 215 and 216, please? 03 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) This is a letter to which we were just 04 referring, Mr. Keeler? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. This letter is signed by Mr. Kendall as the president and 07 it's to one of these individuals that from time to time 08 inquires of Urantia Foundation about different matters? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Let me call your attention, please, to the third 11 paragraph. Would you read that, please. 12 A. "Individuals are free to use 'Urantia' when referring to 13 The Urantia Book or telling someone that Urantia is the name of 14 our planet. These usages are not violations." 15 Q. Is that the policy of The Urantia Foundation? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you have any objection to Mr. McMullan doing that? 18 A. Well, if he's doing it as an individual, as a private 19 individual and for noncommercial purposes, then we would have 20 no problem. 21 Q. All right. 22 A. Now, -- 23 Q. This letter doesn't say "noncommercial purposes" though. 24 A. I agree. 25 Q. So you're adding that condition to Mr. McMullan? 00248 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. That's correct. 02 Q. Why was that not a condition for this? 03 A. I don't know. 04 Q. All right. 05 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Your Honor? 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) If I asked the same question about The 07 Michael Foundation, would your answer be the same? 08 A. I think so. 09 Q. Would it? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Thank you. 12 Let me show you what's been marked or what bears the 13 designation of exhibits -- document numbers 1016, 1017. Can 14 you tell us what that is, sir? 15 A. It is a letter -- 16 Q. Excuse me a minute. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel, can we go up? 18 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 19 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 20 MR. ABOWITZ: These are the documents that were to be 21 redacted; correct? 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Here's the problem. Here's the 23 problem. I'm having a really tough time finding their 24 exhibits -- 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 00249 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'm having a real tough time 02 finding your exhibits because they're in huge groups and 03 there's no Bates number. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: I gave them a list this morning. 05 THE COURT: Let me tell you -- listen to me just a 06 minute. Before the session starts, any other session starts, 07 hopefully at noon or in the morning, you each exchange or that 08 you give him a list of any documents -- 09 MR. ABOWITZ: I did that. 10 THE COURT: -- that you intend -- 11 MR. ABOWITZ: I did that. 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'm not saying he didn't do that. 13 But their composite exhibits don't reference the Bates stamps. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: I gave him a list of the exhibit and 15 the Bates stamp this morning, did I not? 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: You may have. I could be 17 incorrect. 18 THE COURT: At any rate, at noontime do that again. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: I've already done it. 20 THE COURT: For the whole day? 21 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes. Murray, I may have misstated 22 that. 23 THE COURT: All right. Let's go. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: He's reciting the name of the person. 25 Can I direct him not to -- 00250 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Yes. 02 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 03 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 04 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Can you tell us what this is, please, 05 sir, without telling us to whom the letter is addressed? 06 A. It appears to be a letter from Urantia Foundation. 07 Q. On Urantia Foundation letterhead? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Bearing the date of? 10 A. September 5th, 1978. 11 Q. Written by? 12 A. Thomas A. Kendall. 13 Q. And this is a letter, is it not, that is written in the 14 normal course of the business of The Urantia Foundation by its 15 president? 16 A. It appears to be. 17 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admission. 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Be admitted. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have the exhibit, please. 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Sir, who is James C. Mills? 22 A. A former trustee of Urantia Foundation. 23 Q. Was he a trustee in September of 1978? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Thank you. 00251 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: I'd ask you, please, to highlight this 02 paragraph. 03 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I would ask you to read that, please, 04 sir. 05 A. "You are correct, Urantia is indeed the name of our planet 06 and when used to" -- 07 THE COURT: Read just a little bit slower, if you 08 will. 09 A. "You are correct, Urantia is indeed the name of our planet 10 and when used to designate our mortal abode, it should be 11 spelled upper case U, lower case rantia. Obviously, no 12 permission is needed for such a use. However" -- 13 Q. May I interrupt you there? Is that the policy today of 14 Urantia Foundation? 15 A. I think so. 16 Q. All right. Please proceed. 17 A. "However, the word Urantia can also be used to 18 symbolically represent this latest revelation and the official 19 organizations and activities sponsoring its dissemination. It 20 is in this context that the trustees have registered Urantia 21 and the symbol as marks." 22 Q. Please proceed. 23 A. That next word? 24 Q. "Here." 25 A. Oh, "Here." 00252 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. Look at the original and make sure -- or the copy. 02 A. I think it's clearer up there. 03 "Here the word Urantia is spelled entirely in upper case 04 or the logo form is used. Since these are mark usages, 05 permission for such use must be in writing." 06 Q. Now, are these uses for commercial purposes? 07 A. I think so. 08 Q. Do you have any evidence that either Mr. McMullan or The 09 Michael Foundation have used these domain names for a 10 commercial purposes? 11 A. None that I know of. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, from time to time, sir, is it true 14 that people in the Urantia movement refer to themselves and 15 others in the movement as Urantians? 16 A. Some do. 17 Q. Do you? 18 A. No. Well, I probably did in the early days but I haven't 19 in years and years. 20 Q. Well, let me show you an early day. 21 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel, this is Bates number 860 which 22 I previously have given you. 23 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Would you tell us what that is, please, 24 sir. 25 A. It appears to be a letter from me to another person. 00253 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. And in this case I think it's proper for you to reveal the 02 name of the person. 03 A. Bill Hales. 04 Q. Who was? 05 A. At that time president of Urantia Foundation. 06 Q. And the date of the letter, please? 07 A. January 16th, 1972. 08 Q. And as best we can make out, is that your signature? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is that a letter you wrote? 11 A. I think so. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move for its admittance. 13 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection. 14 THE COURT: Be admitted. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: May we have it up on the screen, 16 please. Would you scroll this up, please, and would you 17 highlight the second paragraph. 18 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Would you read that statement for the 19 ladies and gentlemen of the jury and the Court. 20 A. Urantians are as zealous as Mormons." 21 Q. So you do use that? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. In the early days? 24 A. Well, at least once. 25 Q. All right. At that time, you were not on the board; is 00254 { 5:29:07pm} 01 that correct? 02 A. True. 03 Q. Did you ask permission to use that? 04 A. No. 05 Q. Would you think that you would have had to ask permission 06 to use that? 07 A. I don't know. 08 Q. You thought it was a fair use, didn't you? 09 A. Well, I wouldn't say that. I feel as though you're 10 putting words in my mouth. 11 Q. Well, that's what you wrote, isn't it? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. "Urantians are as zealous as Mormons." I didn't put that 14 in your mouth, did I? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Then the third paragraph says, "There are 1,000 hard-core 17 Urantians who have a certain amount of income from which they 18 could tithe; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you used it in that context again? 21 A. True. Noncommercially, privately. 22 Q. And in the proposal, you're talking about this 1,000 hard- 23 core Urantians tithing; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And by "commercial," you mean not in competition with The 00255 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Foundation; is that correct? 02 A. Well, not necessarily. 03 Q. Well, define for me, please, and explain for me the -- 04 A. Well, with the Internet, for example, if someone goes onto 05 the Internet now and starts using the word "Urantia" and then 06 someone of you type in the word "Urantia," you will -- it will 07 bring up all of the web sites that have the word "Urantia." 08 And if an individual there is representing themselves as -- it 09 tends to imply that the individual or some of them would be 10 officially connected with The Urantia Foundation and there is 11 confusion that results from that. 12 Q. So you're -- 13 A. It's not necessarily that they're doing something 14 commercial for money, but in the public's eye, it creates 15 confusion and we hope to avoid that. 16 Q. All right. Let's talk about two things now. Is a 17 commercial use -- A commercial use that involves the goods and 18 services of The Urantia Foundation and competes with The 19 Urantia Foundation is one that is not permitted; is that 20 correct? 21 A. I would agree with that. 22 Q. And a use that may cause confusion, which is different 23 than the first example, would not be permitted; is that 24 correct? 25 A. That, I believe, is an accurate statement. 00256 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. How many domain names are there on the Internet that bear 02 the word or words "Urantia" or some form of that word that 03 might tend to cause confusion? 04 A. I don't know. 05 Q. Hundreds? 06 A. Maybe. 07 Q. Thousands? 08 A. I doubt it. 09 Q. Hundreds? 10 A. Maybe. 11 Q. Would you agree with me that the only way to cause 12 confusion would be that if somebody got on the Internet and 13 scrolled around looking for the name "Urantia," that they would 14 come up with a name; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is it your understanding that the domain names that The 17 Michael Foundation and Mr. McMullan registered can be accessed 18 on the Internet? 19 A. At this time, no. 20 Q. They -- and that hasn't been the case since they were 21 registered; is that correct? 22 A. To the best of my knowledge, it has not been the case 23 since they were registered. 24 Q. So, there is no basis for any confusion; is that correct? 25 A. Not at this time. 00257 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. And there is no basis for one to say that the registration 02 of those names competes or serves as a competitive force with 03 respect to Urantia Foundation and its goods and services? 04 A. I don't know. I would have to consult with legal counsel 05 before answering that question. 06 Q. I'm asking for your common understanding. I'm not asking 07 for a legal conclusion. Common sense. They're not registered, 08 you can't access them, so there isn't any competitive effect in 09 that sense to Urantia Foundation; correct? 10 A. I suppose so. 11 MR. ABOWITZ: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yeah. Is this a good place to take a 13 luncheon break? 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Sure. 15 THE COURT: Let's be recessed until 1:15. 16 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'll remind you of my 17 previous admonition not to discuss the case. Be back in the 18 jury assembly room at 1:15 and we'll try to start very promptly 19 thereafter. 20 I'll ask everyone to stand and remain standing for the 21 jurors to clear the courtroom. 22 Court is in recess. 23 (THE LUNCHEON RECESS WAS TAKEN) 24 00258 { 5:29:07pm} 01 AFTERNOON SESSION 02 WEDNESDAY, JUNE 13, 2001 03 --------------------------------------------------------------- 04 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF 05 THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 06 THE COURT: Steve, Anil tells me you have some 07 concerns about schedule and so forth. Let me first ask Murray. 08 How much longer to you anticipate with this witness? 09 MR. ABOWITZ: 10, 15 minutes. 10 THE COURT: And let's say cross-examination, what -- 11 or examination, hour, hour-and-a-half? Who's your -- 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Hour. 13 THE COURT: Huh? 14 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Cross, an hour. 15 THE COURT: How many other witnesses, live witnesses, 16 do you expect to call? 17 MR. ABOWITZ: One. Mr. McMullan. 18 THE COURT: How long would you anticipate he'll take 19 on direct? 20 MR. ABOWITZ: Hour, hour-and-a-half. 21 THE COURT: All right. So we could very easily be 22 concluded with him today on direct; is that correct? 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Correct. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. ABOWITZ: And maybe even have something left 00259 { 5:29:07pm} 01 over. 02 THE COURT: Okay. What about any other testimony, 03 evidence, witnesses, so forth, how much more will you take 04 tomorrow? 05 MR. ABOWITZ: I am still musing about that but if I 06 make up my mind to present more, they will be portions of 07 depositions that won't amount to an hour. 08 THE COURT: Okay. That will leave you Wednesday, 09 Thursday, -- 10 MR. HILL: Today is Wednesday. 11 THE COURT: Pardon? I mean Thursday and Friday. Do 12 you get all the witnesses you need to get on Thursday and 13 Friday? 14 MR. HILL: I think so. I think at this point. 15 THE COURT: Okay. You wanted to work a little extra 16 this afternoon? Did you want to work late this afternoon? 17 MR. HILL: I don't think that's necessary. 18 THE COURT: All right. We'll see how it stands at 19 5 o'clock or around 5 o'clock. Would that be all right? 20 MR. HILL: If we get to cross on Mr. McMullan today, 21 I think we're doing okay. 22 THE COURT: Okay. We'll move along as quickly as we 23 can and see where we stand late this afternoon. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Is that our tentative schedule, to 25 conclude the evidence by Friday? 00260 { 5:29:07pm} 01 THE COURT: Well, no. I don't think -- he has some 02 witnesses he has to get in and out by Friday. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm sorry. I misunderstood. 04 THE COURT: I think he's going to attempt -- he'll 05 have some more scheduled for Monday, as I understand it. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: May I inquire? 07 THE COURT: We may all be out of here by Friday. 08 MR. ABOWITZ: That's fine by me, Judge. 09 THE COURT: Go ahead, counselor. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: I was going to inquire if we had some 11 sense now of how long the case will take. 12 THE COURT: Do you anticipate having witnesses on 13 Monday? 14 MR. HILL: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Or do you think you can conclude by 16 Friday? 17 MR. HILL: I don't think so, Judge. We have a number 18 of witnesses coming in over the weekend. 19 THE COURT: Now, then, can you hazard a guess as to 20 how long into next week your case will go? 21 MR. HILL: I can't imagine that it will go longer 22 than midday Tuesday. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: I've got a matter in Tulsa that I have 24 to get a permission slip for on Tuesday. 25 THE COURT: Tuesday? 00261 { 5:29:07pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: I'll take care of that. 02 THE COURT: I think this thing may go a little bit 03 faster as we go along. We may even improve on his schedule. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: I think the judge is looking forward to 05 me not showing up. 06 THE COURT: As I say, I start doing away with cross- 07 examination after the first week, so it tends to speed things 08 up. 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Then we'll hold all of our 10 witnesses until next week. 11 THE COURT: We run into a few constitutional issues 12 but we get out of here quicker. 13 All right. Ready, Bev? Bring them on it. Everyone 14 please stand. 15 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 16 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 17 THE COURT: Be seated, please, ladies and gentlemen 18 of the jury. 19 Again, may I inquire, did anything occur during the recess 20 that would prevent any of you from continuing to serve as a 21 fair and impartial juror in this case? I gather not. 22 You may proceed, Mr. Abowitz. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Mr. Keeler, does Urantia Foundation have 25 a policy that they have promulgated with respect to the use of 00262 { 5:29:07pm} 01 their marks? 02 A. Yes. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Can I approach the witness, Your Honor? 04 I have exhibit 40. May it be admitted? 05 MR. SCHOENTHALER: No objection. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: May we show exhibit 40 as being 07 admitted? 08 THE COURT: Pardon? 09 MR. ABOWITZ: May we show it as admitted? Counsel 10 has no -- 11 THE COURT: Yeah, it's admitted. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you put that up on the screen, 13 40, 4-0. 14 Can you see that? 15 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) This is the policy regarding the use of 16 "Urantia" and "Urantian" and the three blue concentric circles. 17 This lawsuit doesn't concern itself with the concentric 18 circles, does it? 19 A. It does not. 20 Q. So we can ignore that portion of this document for that 21 purpose? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Thank you. 24 Let me provide or direct your attention to this center 25 sentence that starts, "Providing these safe harbors means The 00263 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Foundation has granted these uses as ones that you can freely 02 make without concern for violating any of the trademarks, 03 service marks or collective membership marks." 04 Do you know what a safe harbor or a fair use is? 05 A. In a general way. 06 Q. Would you explain that for us, please. 07 A. Well, if you were having a wedding or a funeral and you 08 wanted to use the word "Urantia" or "Urantian," then we 09 would -- or for private personal use around your home, well, we 10 would not object to your doing that. We regard that as not 11 confusing and a noncommercial use and you would be free and 12 welcome to do that. So that would be a safe use, a safe harbor 13 of those two words, "Urantia" and "Urantian." 14 Q. Hypothetically, are there people that have been married in 15 Urantian ceremonies? 16 A. I don't know that I would call them Urantian ceremonies 17 but they've been married and they've been readers of The 18 Urantia Book and many other members of The Urantia Book have 19 been present. 20 Q. Has the ceremony, in part, been based upon readings from 21 The Urantia Book? 22 A. Sure, some -- yes, I have attended weddings. 23 Q. Now, hypothetically, if one had prepared for the guests a 24 program of events and put "Urantian Wedding" on the front with 25 the three circles, would that be objectionable? 00264 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. I don't know. 02 Q. All right. Let me direct your attention to the first 03 sentence. 04 "You may use 'Urantian' or 'Urantians' merely to refer to 05 readers of The Urantia Book or as inhabitants of the planet 06 earth." 07 Are there other uses one can make of those terms? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And, for instance, if I said that I am interested in 10 talking to those who are steeped in Urantian study, would that 11 be objectionable? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Again, are we talking about confusion and commercial use? 14 That's the objection? 15 A. I think so, those two. There may be more but those are 16 the only two that come to my mind at this time. 17 Q. You can't think of any others at this time? 18 A. Not without consulting legal counsel. 19 Q. No. My question was: At this time, as you sit there 20 without any aid, that's what you can recall? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 When The Foundation uses the word "merely" here, what does 24 that mean? Does that mean to limit the use? 25 A. I'm not sure. 00265 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Q. The second sentence says, "You may use 'Urantia' merely as 02 a reference to planet earth." 03 Is the use of the word "merely" in this sentence meant to 04 limit the use of the word "Urantia"? 05 A. I don't know. 06 Q. It says, "You may 'Urantia' and 'Urantian' in weddings, 07 funerals, worship services including the program handout used 08 at the particular calendar event." 09 So, would your answer be different to my hypothetical 10 question now? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. But, hypothetically, I could do that if I wanted to do it? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. We'll not concern ourselves with 4, and we'll not concern 15 ourselves with 5, and we'll not concern ourselves with 6. It 16 says, "If you have any questions, please contact Urantia 17 Foundation." 18 What are the words that Michael Foundation and Harry 19 McMullan used in those domain sites? 20 A. I mentioned to you earlier, I don't know the exact names 21 that he registered but they do contain the words "Urantia" and 22 "Urantian." 23 Q. Do you know of your own accord whether or not the use that 24 Mr. McMullan and Michael Foundation intended of those words was 25 anything more than you allow them to do? 00266 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. Well, I don't know about his intention. I'm sure that 02 Coca Cola, for example, if I or you or any of you registered 03 the name Coca Cola and you put it up as a web site, it's going 04 to confuse people and they will object in the same way that The 05 Urantia Foundation is objecting. 06 Q. But you have no inclination that Mr. McMullan was not 07 using those terms or the term "Urantia" or "Urantian" within 08 the context that you permitted; is that correct? 09 A. Well, he might have been but I was told that he said if he 10 won this lawsuit, that he was going to set up a web site and 11 begin to use them for commercial purposes, and I think it would 12 be confusing, I assume, to distribute if he won this lawsuit 13 for both the marks and the -- 14 Q. Well, we're not there. A federal judge once told me, 15 "Don't cross the bridge until you get there." Okay? 16 A. My dad told me that. 17 Q. All right. And I think the gentleman is sitting in the 18 courtroom that told me that. 19 THE COURT: I want the record to reflect it was not 20 this federal judge. 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Let's talk about before Mr. McMullan 22 wins the lawsuit, if that's what happens. 23 You have no information that he's using these terms in any 24 sense other than those that are permitted by this policy; is 25 that correct? 00267 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. I suppose so. 02 Q. All right. And with respect to confusion, we've agreed 03 earlier that those domain sites are not in use, did we not? 04 A. That's true. 05 Q. So, in terms of your hypothetical example, if someone on 06 the jury were to get on the computer to look for them and 07 looked at these words, they wouldn't find them? 08 A. True. Judge West declared our marks to be valid. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm going to object to the 10 soliloquy. 11 THE COURT: Just respond to his question. 12 A. Repeat the question. 13 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I believe you answered. 14 A. Please. 15 Q. There was a man named Schaveland, I think his name was, 16 who had a domain site, I think it was Urantia.com. Do you 17 recall that? 18 A. I recall his web site. 19 Q. Did The Foundation consider that to be offensive to this 20 policy? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. At the end of the day, was he permitted to keep the web 23 site? 24 A. He was not. 25 Q. He was not. 00268 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Let me move on to something else, and I'm just about to 02 conclude this. 03 I'd like to show you exhibit 59. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, counsel have agreed that 05 this may come into evidence. 06 THE COURT: Be admitted. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: May we have exhibit 59, please. 08 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I just wanted to clarify one point on 09 The Urantia Book. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you scroll that up, please. 11 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I asked you a series of questions about 12 the book and I think I missed this one. The Urantia Book is 13 arranged and assembled exactly as revealed. Do you agree with 14 that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In other words, there is nobody, there is no human person 17 that rearranged that book after the writings were received; is 18 that correct? 19 A. True. 20 Q. It was published in exactly the form that it was arranged 21 at the time that Dr. Sadler or The Contact Commission took 22 possession of the writing? 23 A. False. 24 Q. And you are basing that upon the questions? 25 A. Yes, the questions before the papers were received and the 00269 { 5:29:07pm} 01 questions and revisions that were made after. 02 Q. Okay. But if there were any rearranging done, it was not 03 done by a human being; is that -- 04 A. True. 05 Q. So the arrangement of the book as we see it published from 06 papers 1 through 196 is an arrangement totally based upon the 07 direction and arrangement of a celestial being? 08 A. I don't know about "a" but celestial beings. 09 Q. One or more celestial -- 10 A. As a matter of faith, I believe that. 11 Q. One or more celestial beings; is that correct? 12 A. More than one. The book itself says, "A composite 13 presentation by many beings, many celestial beings." 14 Q. Then the correct way to describe this is that the 15 arrangement we find this book in today is based solely on the 16 arrangement as it was directed by these many celestial beings? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Thank you. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have about 10 seconds, Your 20 Honor? 21 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Was there a time, sir, when -- well, let 22 me back up a minute. 23 At one time, Urantia Brotherhood -- and correct my 24 terminology here if it's wrong -- distributed The Urantia Book. 25 A. It was distributed by an entity I believe called The 00270 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Brotherhood Corporation which was very closely affiliated with 02 Urantia Brotherhood and Urantia Foundation. 03 Q. And the Urantia Brotherhood? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. At some point in time, did the distribution of that book 06 change to put it in the hands of distributors? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. So, The Urantia Foundation would make as many copies as 09 were ordered available to these distributors to resell on 10 behalf of Urantia Foundation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Was there a time, sir, in fact, when the Urantia 13 Foundation restricted the sale of the book? 14 A. It depends on what you mean by "restricted," but in a 15 certain way, yes. 16 Q. In what way? 17 A. We had a policy -- The Foundation did, before I was 18 trustee, had a policy of selling books directly to individuals 19 and The Foundation also sold books to organizations that were 20 not official distributors at a discount. Sold books to 21 organizations that are -- well, I don't know about individuals, 22 but to organizations that were not official distributors, shall 23 we say discounters. He had an organization called Asoka 24 Foundation and books were sold to Mr. McMullan and then he 25 would resell them. 00271 { 5:29:07pm} 01 Now, the result of that was -- the question is: Why did 02 we change our policy? Why was there restriction? 03 Q. No, I thought you were explaining to me what the 04 restriction was. 05 A. I am. 06 The restriction was related to the fact that we wanted the 07 books to go through book stores. There were three conduits and 08 on each of those pipes there were wheels that you could turn. 09 So some of the books were going to individuals, some of them 10 were going through distributors, and then -- or to book stores 11 and to individuals, and some of them were going to discount 12 organizations such as Mr. McMullan's Asoka Foundation and then 13 they would go to individuals. We wanted to maximize the flow 14 to the book stores because book stores weren't carrying our 15 books. They said, "Well, if we can sell them, we will carry 16 it," so we turned off the spigot of the direct sales to 17 individuals and we turned off the spigot of sales to the 18 discounters that went to individuals, so it maximized the flow 19 to book stores. We wanted the book stores to carry the book so 20 we did restrict sales to individuals and to the discounters. 21 Q. Is it a fact that you essentially told Mr. McMullan that 22 you were going to restrict the number of copies of this book he 23 could buy? 24 A. I don't know. I think so. Yes. 25 Q. And he was buying books at 100 copies at a time? 00272 { 5:29:07pm} 01 A. Probably. 02 Q. And he was paying for them? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. He was paying your price for them? 05 A. Yes. He was a discounter. He had Asoka Foundation. 06 Q. I'm not talking about Asoka Foundation now. I'm talking 07 about Harry McMullan. 08 A. I don't know. That's possible. 09 Q. And Mr. McMullan would buy those books, 100 copies at a 10 time, and he would give some away? 11 A. Probably. 12 Q. He would sell some? 13 A. Probably. 14 Q. And he was doing exactly what The Foundation says it's 15 going to do in its charter; is that correct: spreading the word 16 and the book? 17 A. You could argue that. 18 Q. And you, for some reason, didn't want him to have that 19 many copies to do that; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. We wanted the book to go out through book stores, 21 not directly to individuals and not to discounters. 22 Q. How would you be harmed by Mr. McMullan paying full price 23 for those books and giving them to people who were interested 24 in reading and learning about the Urantia movement? 25 A. We wanted to go through the normal channels of 00273 { 5:29:07pm} 01 distribution. We wanted to go out through -- you buy books 02 through book stores, and we wanted to maximize the number of 03 books that book stores were willing to carry. And if I bought 04 books -- personally, I bought books from Mr. McMullan. 05 Q. Mr. McMullan personally? 06 A. Well, I don't know. It may have been Asoka Foundation. 07 But I bought books. And then when I understood how that meant 08 that those books were not going to be purchased through book 09 stores and go through that channel of distribution, then I 10 decided I wouldn't do that any more. I wanted to give the book 11 store owners incentive to carry the book on their shelves. 12 Q. But you refused to sell multiple copies to Mr. McMullan? 13 A. I don't know for a fact we did but -- 14 Q. But -- 15 A. But I -- it wouldn't surprise me to hear that we did. 16 Q. All right. Now, as a matter of fact -- 17 A. We didn't single him out. There were a lot of people. 18 Q. There were a lot of people you wouldn't -- 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. -- sell books to; right? 21 A. We were going to sell the book directly to no individual, 22 that was our policy, except for if somebody lived -- and I live 23 in Wyoming now -- if somebody was way out in Wyoming and there 24 was a book store that you had to go all the way to Cody or to 25 Sheridan and that was 150 miles away, well, we would mail one 00274 { 5:29:07pm} 01 directly to an individual like that who didn't have access to a 02 book store. Otherwise, we would say, "We would prefer you get 03 it from a book store. We're trying to encourage sales through 04 the book stores." 05 Q. And, in fact, you, on behalf of The Foundation, wrote 06 letters to people and said, "We don't choose to sell you or 07 your children books"; is that correct? 08 A. Yes. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: That's all I have. 10 THE COURT: Counselor? 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I have a moment to give him a 12 list? 13 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may I retrieve that exhibit 14 while we're waiting? 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 18 Q. Hello, Mr. Keeler. How are you today? I'll try to make 19 this fairly brief. 20 Now, let's go back to yesterday. I know it's been a while 21 but I want to start at the beginning because that's always the 22 best place to start. 23 You mentioned in your examination by Mr. Abowitz that you 24 had taken an oath. Could you explain a little bit more about 25 that oath for the jury, please? 00275 { 5:29:10pm} 01 A. There was -- over the years, especially in the early days, 02 there was certain information shared with me that I agreed not 03 to share with other persons. I didn't raise my hand and take 04 an oath but it was as clear as could be that, and I was asked, 05 I was asked, "Would you not share this information with anyone 06 else?" and I said, "I shall not." 07 Q. And just to clarify, we've talked about a lot of oaths 08 here. This was not the oath that The Contact Commission took? 09 A. It was not. 10 Q. It was not the oath that The Forum took? 11 A. It was not. 12 Q. All right. Without divulging the information that you 13 took the oath regarding, can you tell me who it came from -- 14 who told you the information, if you recall? 15 A. It came, I think, from Emma Christensen. 16 Q. Okay. And we've talked earlier about -- well, let's start 17 here. Did it have anything to do with the topics that 18 Mr. Abowitz discussed with you yesterday? 19 A. It did not. 20 Q. Or today? 21 A. It had nothing to do with the materialization of the 22 Urantia Papers. It had nothing to do with The Contact 23 Commission. It had nothing to do with the contact. It had 24 nothing to do with the publication of the book. I will say 25 this: It had to do with an automobile accident. 00276 { 5:29:15pm} 01 Q. All right. So, I mean, just to be clear, and I think 02 you've been clear, but it really has nothing to do with this 03 case; is that correct? 04 A. Nothing. Absolutely nothing, in my opinion. 05 Q. Let's move on then. 06 Now, you discussed a little bit yesterday with counsel 07 about how you became familiar with The Urantia Book. Do you 08 recall that? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Why don't you remind the jury, very generally, about your 11 early experience with The Urantia Book. 12 A. How I -- 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. I was a freshman at the University of Kansas and lived in 15 a fraternity, was a freshman the first year, and there was an 16 individual there, a fraternity brother of mine who was also a 17 freshman, and he told me about The Urantia Book. I heard about 18 it in 1959 and bought my first copy at -- it happened to be -- 19 my last name is Keeler -- at Keeler's Book Store. No 20 relationship but I kind of feel good that I got my copy at a 21 book store by that name. And have now been reading The Urantia 22 Book since 1960. So that's over 40 years now. 23 Q. When you read the book, I take it you became mildly 24 interested in its contents? 25 A. Yes. It has been one of the few books in my life where 00277 { 5:29:19pm} 01 when somebody may say about a book, "You won't be able to put 02 this down," well, I was physically active and very athletic 03 when I was growing up and I was always able to put a book down 04 but I started reading The Urantia Book from beginning to end 05 and read it I think one time the longest period was seven 06 hours, but I was reading it in three and four and five-hour 07 goals. 08 Q. Now, I believe, to refresh your recollection, you 09 testified yesterday that at some point you became interested 10 enough to take a trip. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Where did you go? When did you take the trip and where 13 did you go? 14 A. I wrote to The Urantia Foundation in Chicago informing 15 them that I wanted to visit The Foundation and speak with 16 someone there about The Urantia Book. I told them that I was 17 very interested in it, and I received a letter back saying that 18 I was welcome to do that and suggesting a date. It was in the 19 spring of 1962. 20 Q. Do you recall who the letter was from? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So you did take the trip to Chicago? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you went to The Urantia Foundation headquarters? 25 A. Yes. 00278 { 5:29:24pm} 01 Q. And when you were at Urantia Foundation headquarters, did 02 you meet with anyone? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Who was that? 05 A. Dr. Sadler. 06 Q. Dr. Sadler that we've heard so much about, the member of 07 the Contact Commission? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Okay. Now, if you recall, approximately how long was the 10 meeting? 11 A. Three to five hours. 12 Q. And was it a conversation or did you ask him questions? 13 A. Yes, questions, many questions. 14 Q. Did he respond to your questions? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In those three to five hours, did he tell you the facts 17 that you recited to the jury yesterday and today? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Would it be fair to say that your entire knowledge of what 20 occurred regarding the papers, regarding the questioning 21 process, regarding the Forum and the Contact Commission, 22 occurred from that conversation? 23 A. 99 percent, if not 100 percent. No, 99 percent. 24 Q. Well, let's start up again. You mentioned a lot of topics 25 and we have a lot of items that have been discussed in the last 00279 { 5:29:27pm} 01 two days. I want to talk about some of them and I want you to 02 tell me, based on what you learned from Dr. Sadler. 03 Tell me, generally, what he said about the subject. When 04 I say "subject," a lot of terms have been used and I want to 05 make sure everyone understands. We've used "patient" and we 06 have used "conduit" and we have used "subject." I don't know 07 which one you're most comfortable with but why don't you use 08 your term. 09 A. He told me in the early 1900s, my recollection is it was 10 1906 or 1907, and had it been 1907, I would have remembered it 11 because that's when we became a state in Oklahoma. In my 12 opinion, it was he told me 1906, but it was the early 1900s and 13 he said that an individual came to him. He said the patient -- 14 or the term has been used "patient" and the implication was 15 that he was a psychiatrist and this individual came to him. He 16 was not a psychiatrist at that time. It was later that he 17 became a psychiatrist. He was still practicing general 18 medicine or surgery at that time. And the patient was 19 discoursing eloquently in his sleep and did that for a long 20 enough period that his wife was concerned and sought the 21 medical -- went to Dr. Sadler. She and her husband went to 22 Dr. Sadler and that is when this Urantia project started and it 23 went on for almost 50 years. I can give you more detail if you 24 want. 25 Q. Let's hold off. 00280 { 5:29:33pm} 01 Did he ever divulge the identity of this individual? 02 A. Never. 03 Q. Did he tell you whether the subject knew what was going 04 on? 05 A. He did. 06 Q. What did he tell you? 07 A. He said that the -- "sleeping subject" was the term that 08 he used -- that the sleeping subject would, after he -- when he 09 was not sleeping, he would read the papers and took a modicum 10 of interest in the papers, but in a subtle way he was also 11 remarkably unconcerned. He didn't see himself as some great 12 profit and an unusual -- 13 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I will object to that 14 portion. It's now the mind of the patient rather than 15 Dr. Sadler. 16 THE COURT: We're permitting him to repeat what 17 Dr. Sadler said. 18 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Mr. Keeler, I think the Judge is 19 telling you that you can repeat what Dr. Sadler said because it 20 has been discussed ad nauseam. 21 A. I see. 22 Q. But don't give your own opinion. Is that fair? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Well, let's do it another way. Let's start at about what 25 year did -- I think you said the mid 1900s, early 1900s? 00281 { 5:29:37pm} 01 A. Early 1900s. 02 Q. Did there come a time later when Dr. Sadler invited others 03 to participate in what was occurring with this subject? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And when about was that time? 06 A. About 1923 -- late '23 or early '24 and it got in full 07 swing in, I think, 1925. 08 Q. Okay. I'll try to add the numbers up myself, but 09 approximately between 15 and 20 years Dr. Sadler was the only 10 person who was -- and the wife, obviously, of the subject -- 11 was the only person involved in hearing these transmissions 12 from the subject? 13 A. As far as I know. 14 Q. Well, what happened in the mid 1920s? 15 A. In 1923, late 1923, I think it was, Dr. Sadler's son, he 16 told me, Bill Sadler, Jr., that Dr. Sadler communicated to his 17 son, and he happened to be -- Dr. Sadler was lecturing in 18 Kansas on the Old Chautauqua Tour, he told me, and he 19 communicated with his son the idea of starting a Sunday 20 afternoon discussion group. It was partly social but they were 21 going to talk about medicine and books and philosophy, I think. 22 It wasn't exactly a book club. There were more social 23 overtones than that. But toward the end of '23, and he said, 24 "Well, mention this," according to Dr. Sadler, "Tell your mom 25 about this idea," and it materialized, I believe, in December 00282 { 5:29:43pm} 01 of 1923 and continued on through 1924 discussing other topics. 02 And it was in late '24, possibly '25, when Dr. Sadler -- 03 he was asked, according to Dr. Sadler, this account that he 04 told me, he was asked if there were any unusual cases that he 05 had had and he mentioned this one that -- shall we call it now 06 the Urantia phenomena. He mentioned that. And after that 07 time, he told me that people didn't want to talk about anything 08 else but this. 09 And they started, in 1924, a group which they called The 10 Forum and we still refer to The Forum today. That over the 11 years, people would come and go, as I mentioned the other day, 12 but I think there were almost 500 persons total at any given 13 time, maybe there were only a couple hundred, and that was the 14 group. 15 A celestial being, according to Dr. Sadler, informed them 16 in one of these verbal sessions, through the sleeping subject, 17 that they were asking -- they said it much more elegantly than 18 this -- but, in effect, they said, "Why don't you stop asking 19 these foolish questions and trying to trick us and get us to 20 contradict ourselves. We've been sent on a very important 21 mission to deliver an important revelation to the people of 22 this planet," and this has been in preparation since, I think 23 he told me, since the middle ages, that this has been in the 24 planning stages. And they decided -- they took that as a 25 challenge and they said, "Okay, we will ask questions that 00283 { 5:29:51pm} 01 nobody, nobody knows about, no humans or nobody that we know 02 knows about." And that's when they wrote out on slips of paper 03 all of these questions and they placed them at some designated 04 place and that was when the first Urantia -- the questions 05 disappeared, the slips of paper and the questions disappeared, 06 he told me, and the first Urantia Papers appeared. 07 Q. Let's go back a little bit. 08 You've talked about one group called The Forum. Was that 09 group -- who was that group composed of, generally? 10 A. It was, he told me, composed of persons of all walks of 11 life. There were professional people, there were 12 nonprofessionals, laborers. He listed, as I recall -- he began 13 to list off people of so many different -- that worked at so 14 many different things, that it was like, well, it was made up 15 of everybody, a good cross-section of people. 16 Q. And The Forum was composed of persons who originally came 17 to Dr. Sadler's house, I believe? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And began to discuss other topics which turned into a 20 discussion of this one phenomena? 21 A. True. 22 Q. Was there another group associated with the phenomena? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Tell me about that group. 25 A. That group was called The Contact Commission. 00284 { 5:29:56pm} 01 Q. And I think you listed the names yesterday but I would 02 appreciate it if you would remind the jury of the names of 03 those individuals. 04 A. They were all blood or family related except for one. It 05 was Dr. Sadler and his wife and their son; and then it was Lena 06 Sadler, his wife's first name, Dr. Lena; and Dr. Lena had -- 07 and her maiden name was Kellogg -- there were two of her 08 cousins who were also Contact Commissioners, Mr. and 09 Mrs. Kellogg; and then there was one person that was not blood 10 related to any of them, a lady by the name of Emma Christensen. 11 Q. So there were six Contact Commissioners and a certain 12 amount of members in The Forum and that number changed from 13 time to time depending on new people coming in and some people 14 leaving -- not leaving The Forum necessarily -- but leaving to 15 move out of town? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And did it cost anything to join The Forum? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did the Contact Commissioners pay anything to join their 20 group, The Contact Commission? 21 A. They did not. 22 Q. Was The Forum charged anything to appear at these meetings 23 and to discuss the book and ask questions? 24 A. Would you repeat that? 25 Q. Well, I'll ask it simply. Were the members of the Forum 00285 { 5:30:01pm} 01 paid any compensation for what they did in this phenomenon? 02 A. They were not. 03 Q. Were the members of The Contact Commission paid any 04 compensation? 05 A. They were not. I believe Dr. Sadler made it clear to me 06 that no one received a penny from beginning to end during this 07 whole process. It was all volunteer. 08 Q. Well, we're missing somebody. What about the subject? 09 A. He was paid -- or nobody -- he told me nobody received any 10 money, so "nobody" includes the subject. 11 Q. Now, we're at 1925 and we've got The Forum and we've got 12 The Contact Commission and we've got the sleeping subject, the 13 three parties involved. Why don't you tell me, because I don't 14 think it has really been told as a story, why don't you tell 15 the jury about, from the beginning to end, the questioning 16 process and how the papers came about. 17 A. Each member of The Forum -- now, The Contact Commission 18 was also a part -- these six individuals were also a part of 19 the Forum -- they would write questions on slips of paper, and 20 then the Contact Commissioners would go through and take out 21 any duplicates. And the papers -- Dr. Sadler emphasized that 22 the papers all came as a response to these questions, and he 23 referred to them as genetic questions, genes, genetic, having 24 to do with originating. To me, the word "genetic" indicates 25 there's something more active -- 00286 { 5:30:06pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm going to object to his 02 analysis. 03 THE WITNESS: You're right. I'm sorry. 04 THE COURT: Sustained. 05 THE WITNESS: I sustain that as well. Excuse me, 06 Judge. 07 THE COURT: Thank you. 08 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Would you two like to change 09 seats? 10 THE WITNESS: Not today. Thank you. 11 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) All right. I think we're jumping 12 ahead of ourselves. 13 Where were these meetings? Where did they take place? 14 A. In Chicago. 15 Q. Where? 16 A. At 533 Diversey Parkway, which is the current headquarters 17 of The Urantia Foundation. When Dr. Sadler died, he gave the 18 building to Urantia Foundation. 19 Q. When were the meetings? 20 A. Sunday afternoons. 21 Q. And when you say the meetings were at 533 Diversey and 22 they occurred Sunday afternoon, is that consistent for the 23 entire process or did they hold them at different people's 24 houses? Did they hold them on different days? 25 A. No. They were all held, according to Dr. Sadler, they 00287 { 5:30:10pm} 01 were all held at 533 Diversey Parkway. 02 Q. Okay. So, if I've got this right, The Forum submitted 03 questions to The Contact Commission? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And what did The Contact Commission do with the questions? 06 A. They put them in a certain place. When I said everything 07 I know about the origin, it came from Dr. Sadler, 99 percent if 08 not 100 percent, he did not tell me -- I've since heard a rumor 09 that those slips of paper were put in his desk. 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I would object to any rumor 11 and move it be stricken. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Well, so, we've got -- they were 14 put somewhere? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And -- Well, were there meetings with the subject at 17 all? How was the subject involved? 18 A. Did The Forum meet with the subject? 19 Q. No. We know The Forum and The Contact Commission met on 20 Sunday afternoons. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What about the subject himself? 23 A. The subject and The Contact Commission met. 24 Q. And do you know when they met? 25 A. No. 00288 { 5:30:13pm} 01 Q. Do you know where they met? 02 A. No. 03 Q. Dr. Sadler didn't tell you that information? 04 A. He did not. 05 Q. And did Dr. Sadler tell you anything about those meetings 06 between The Contact Commission and the subject? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Why don't you share that with the jury. 09 A. Well, there was the verbal contact that went on for 50 10 years, in addition to when the Contact Commissioners were 11 communicating with the subject, he would talk. And he said 12 that -- and then there were the written communications. They 13 never saw him write them. 14 Q. Well, let's slow down now. You said he would talk? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what years are we talking about here? 17 A. Early 1900s, until 1955. 18 Q. So, during the meetings, sessions, I think, The Contact 19 Commission and the subject, the subject would talk. And what 20 would he say? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Well, what occurred after those meetings? 23 A. There were -- what did he say? May I answer -- 24 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm going to object. It's 25 been asked and answered, what he said, and he said he didn't 00289 { 5:30:18pm} 01 know. 02 THE COURT: Sustained. 03 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Why don't you tell the jury what 04 happened because of the meetings with The Contact Commission 05 and the subject. 06 A. What was said, he was discoursing on -- 07 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 08 that. He already said he didn't know what he said. 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, if he knows, he knows. 10 THE COURT: Pardon? 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I mean, I agree that he initially 12 said, "I don't know," but he seems prepared to answer. 13 THE COURT: Have you now reconsidered that answer and 14 consider it incorrect? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: That you did not know? 17 Go ahead, counselor. 18 A. Two things Dr. Sadler told me were unusual about this 19 individual. He spoke in -- 20 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, that is not responsive to 21 the question. 22 THE COURT: I think it is. Go ahead. 23 A. He spoke in innumerable voices. Sadler said, "I have 24 never seen this before." Innumerable voices. And he was 25 consistent from one session to the next. They tried to make 00290 { 5:30:22pm} 01 him contradict himself, they tried to trick him, and he said 02 sometimes people who go into a trance-like state, that they 03 will be consistent within one trance but if they go into 04 another one, then they will be -- you can get them to 05 contradict themselves; they will say something in the next 06 trance that was different. But he said this guy, over 50 07 years, never, in their minds, never contradicted himself, and 08 represented all of these -- well, innumerable voices, I think 09 was the adjective -- innumerable voices that came through, that 10 he had never seen that before. He had seen a few different 11 voices but never innumerable. And they discoursed on things of 12 -- not matters that were not just about things here and now on 13 this planet, but they spoke, he told me, of matters relating to 14 the organization of the universe and cosmology and how the 15 entire universe works. 16 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) And -- I'm sorry. Please continue 17 if you have more to say. 18 A. Well, I think he uses an example, and this is in The 19 Urantia Book, that the universe expands and contracts like a 20 heart. We're in an expansion cycle now. But such topics that 21 most of us don't talk about over spaghetti and garlic bread. 22 Q. Now, did someone take efforts to take down or retain what 23 the subject was saying? 24 A. Yes. He said that his wife did in the early days, but 25 then in about 19- -- in the early 1920s, I think it was '22, 00291 { 5:30:28pm} 01 Emma Christensen, who was a stenographer, among other things, 02 became the official stenographer. It was about the time that 03 The Forum got started. So there had been an earlier written 04 record but it was not professionally done, shall we say, by the 05 professional Emma Christensen. 06 Q. Now, at some point, did the responses of the subject 07 become -- or materialize, for lack of a better word? 08 A. Did the communications of the subject materialize? 09 Q. Yes. 10 A. Well, they went from being the verbal communications to 11 being the written communications. 12 Q. And how did those written communications, based on what 13 Dr. Sadler told you, how did they materialize? How did they 14 occur? 15 A. He did not know. He said, "This is one phenomena I do not 16 understand." All of these other psychic phenomenas, he said, 17 and I mentioned -- gave him some examples and asked him 18 questions from my own experience, and he said, "I can explain 19 all of those, those are well-known psychic phenomena, but this 20 Urantia phenomena, I cannot explain." 21 Q. Now, at some point we've heard testimony from you, from 22 counsel's examination, that papers started to appear. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And -- 25 A. I think he used the term "materialized." 00292 { 5:30:34pm} 01 Q. I used the correct term. 02 When did papers occur and what was the process? 03 A. They would ask -- The Forum would ask questions. Again, 04 The Contact Commission was a part of The Forum. They would ask 05 questions and they would put them in a certain place and then 06 the questions, which were on slips of paper, would disappear 07 and the papers would appear in their place. After that, the 08 paper then would be read to The Forum at one of these Sunday 09 afternoon meetings and they would ask questions and they were 10 told that the celestial beings were observing them and 11 listening to the questions and reactions to the material that 12 had been read, and based on their reactions, then the papers 13 would be -- the papers were revised. 14 Q. And are we talking about -- 15 A. So, there were really two sets of questions or input on 16 the part of The Forum. There were the questions up front 17 before the papers appeared and then the papers appeared, and 18 then there would be, shall we say, the post-appearance of the 19 papers, questions and revisions. 20 Q. Now, we talked about The Forum. What was The Contact 21 Commission's role in all of this? 22 A. They were the organizers. They were the facilitators. 23 They were the directors and managers of all of this. 24 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I approach the witness, Your 25 Honor? 00293 { 5:30:37pm} 01 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you look through that 02 document, please. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: May I ask the number, please? 04 May we approach the bench, Your Honor? 05 THE COURT: Sure. 06 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 07 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 08 THE COURT: Anybody have a copy of the document? 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Mr. Keeler, may I borrow that? 10 MR. ABOWITZ: We have it. We have it. 11 THE COURT: I can't hardly read this. What is it? 12 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Let's take a look at the first 13 page, this first page. Your Honor, this is their exhibit. 14 This is ours. If you recall, this matter was before -- 15 MR. ABOWITZ: Shhh. 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: This matter was raised in chambers 17 about objections. They did not object to their own exhibit, 18 obviously, and we withdrew our objections to the exhibit and 19 now we're attempting to put it into evidence and I think 20 they're objecting to it. 21 THE COURT: What is the objection, if any, and have 22 you listed your objection? 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes, we have. 24 THE COURT: Okay. What are they? 25 MR. ABOWITZ: It does not fall under the ancient 00294 { 5:30:43pm} 01 document exceptions because it's not reliable. The testimony 02 that would -- 03 THE COURT: You're objecting on the ground that it's 04 hearsay and not -- 05 MR. ABOWITZ: It's hearsay and it's not reliable, 06 they can't prove it came out of their files and there are three 07 different versions of it. 08 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, if I may? 09 THE COURT: Sure. 10 MR. SCHOENTHALER: First of all, their objections are 11 waived. They did not keep them in the pretrial order. We've 12 waived -- We've removed our objections prior to trial. There 13 are no objections to this. I mean, we're going to pull a case 14 right now that says, frankly, that we all know that if you 15 don't have objections evidence, they're gone. 16 MR. PLOURDE: Judge, what they're trying to offer now 17 is a document that we listed and they just tried to boot strap 18 it in through all of your exhibits. 19 THE COURT: You listed it and they didn't list it? 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: (COUNSEL SHAKES HEAD) 21 THE COURT: And both sides waived objections? 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: (COUNSEL NODS HEAD) 23 THE COURT: And you didn't make any specific 24 objection to it but you simply listed it, right, and now you 25 are objecting to it? 00295 { 5:30:46pm} 01 MR. PLOURDE: Well -- 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes. 03 THE COURT: Did they incorporate your listings in 04 their pretrial order? 05 MR. ABOWITZ: They did. 06 THE COURT: It will be admitted then. Objections are 07 waived. 08 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 09 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 10 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Have you looked -- you don't have 11 it any more, do you? 12 Would you please review that? Take your time. 13 THE COURT: All the time you need, up to 30 seconds. 14 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Mr. Keeler, -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- do you recognize the document? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. Would you please tell the jury what the document is. 19 A. It is, in my opinion, a history of the Urantia Papers 20 written by Dr. Sadler. 21 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Can you pull it up, please? 22 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) I think what we're going to do for 23 the jury, and I know it's very difficult to see, we've 24 obviously got it on there and I would ask you at times to read 25 it, if that's okay with the Judge, because it is a bad copy. 00296 { 5:30:52pm} 01 MR. SCHOENTHALER: If you would, scroll down. Would 02 you highlight that right there? Go up a line and down a line. 03 That will be fine. 04 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you start right there, 05 Mr. Keeler, and read for the jury what it says. 06 A. "This group early arrived at the conclusion that the 07 phenomena connected with the personality, who was later 08 associated with the Urantia Papers, was in no way similar to 09 any other well-known type of psychic performance, such as 10 hypnotism, automatic writing, clairvoyance, trances, spirit 11 mediumship, telepathy, or double personality." 12 Q. Go ahead and read the last paragraph as well. 13 A. "It should be made clear that the antecedents of the 14 Urantia Papers were in no way associated with so-called 15 spiritualism, with its seances and supposed communication with 16 the spirits of departed human beings." 17 Q. Let's take that language -- 18 THE COURT: Mr. Schoenthaler, -- 19 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes? 20 THE COURT: -- usually people don't get quite close 21 enough but I believe you're a bit too close to that 22 microphone. I'm having a little difficulty hearing you. 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes, Your Honor. 24 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Let's take that paragraph you just 25 read. 00297 { 5:30:57pm} 01 Did that language strike a bell with you? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And why is that? 04 A. It appears to be, and I am familiar with this document, it 05 appears to me to be on paper what Dr. Sadler said to me in 06 person. 07 Q. And when did he say this to you in person? 08 A. In 1962. 09 Q. When you visited Chicago? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And we're going to go through the entire document, not all 12 of it, I promise, but a lot of the document. I want to know 13 ahead of time, since you're familiar with the document, is that 14 true for the entire document? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Would you please turn it to 4? 17 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Mr. Keeler, when you get to page 4, 18 I would appreciate if you would read the entire page. 19 A. "We told The Forum all about this and invited them to join 20 us in the preparation of questions. We decided to start out 21 with questions pertaining to the origin of the cosmos, deity, 22 creation, and such other" -- I can't read my copy here. Let's 23 see what it says up here. 24 Where was I? 25 Q. Mr. Keeler, you can turn around and look behind you and 00298 { 5:31:02pm} 01 you might be able to see it better. The other side. 02 A. Oh. 03 -- "questions pertaining to the origin of the cosmos, 04 deity, creation and such other subjects as were far beyond the 05 present-day knowledge of all mankind. 06 "The following Sunday, several hundred questions were 07 brought in. We sorted out these questions, discarding 08 duplicates, and in a general way, classifying them. Shortly 09 thereafter, the first Urantia paper appeared in answer to these 10 questions. From first to last, when the papers appeared, the 11 questions disappeared. 12 "This was the procedure followed throughout the many years 13 of the reception of the Urantia Papers. No questions, no 14 papers." 15 Q. And that last short sentence, do you recall that as being 16 something Dr. Sadler told you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If you would, Mr. Keeler, would you read page 5 to the 19 jury. 20 A. "After about 20 years of contact experience, an" -- 21 Q. Mr. Keeler, why don't you read the title first. 22 A. Oh. "How the Urantia Papers Started." 23 "After about 20 years of contact experience, an alleged 24 student-visitor, speaking through" -- I don't know -- "this" -- 25 or "the sleeping subject." It's some other word than "this." 00299 { 5:31:08pm} 01 I can't make that out. -- "speaking through this" -- it looks 02 like "this" up here -- "this sleeping subject during one of 03 these nocturnal vigils, in answer to one of our questions said, 04 'If you only knew what you are in contact with, you would not 05 ask such trivial questions. You would rather ask such 06 questions as might elicit answers of supreme value to the human 07 race.'" 08 Q. Keep going. Read the entire -- 09 A. "This was something of a shock, as well as a mild rebuke, 10 and caused all of us to look upon this unique experience in a 11 new and different way. Later on that night, one of our number 12 said: 'Now they have asked for it. Let us give them questions 13 that no human being can answer.' Now it is best to let matters 14 rest here while we shift this narrative to a new and different 15 setting." 16 Q. Now, the next -- 17 MR. SCHOENTHALER: If you'll turn to 6, please. 18 Highlight the title. 19 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) I don't want you to read this but I 20 want you to look it over. If there's no objection, I want you 21 to state on the record whether it is similar to what you 22 communicated to the jury in your testimony today. 23 A. It is. 24 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Please turn it to 8. 25 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Now, at some point we've discussed 00300 { 5:31:15pm} 01 that The Forum was a group of friends and acquaintances from 02 many walks of life and they -- that group turned into The 03 Forum. Now, if you'll look at page 8, and the title, would you 04 please read the first three paragraphs and then explain whether 05 it was similar to what Dr. Sadler told you about The Forum's 06 organization. 07 A. The title is, "The Forum" -- something -- "A Closed 08 Group." Can anyone make out that word? "The Forum" -- what is 09 that word? 10 Q. If you can't read -- 11 A. I can't. I can't -- 12 Q. Just go ahead and skip down. 13 A. -- there, here, or behind me. "The Forum" -- something -- 14 A Closed Group." 15 "About this time, The Forum, as it were, was taken away 16 from us. We were instructed to form a closed group, requiring 17 each member to sign a pledge of secrecy and to discuss the 18 papers and all matters pertaining thereto with only these 19 persons who were members of The Forum. 20 "Membership tickets were issued and the charter membership 21 membered 30. The date of this organization was September, 22 1925. 17 of these charter members are still living." 23 Q. Now, I want to stop you for a second and I want to ask 24 you: Based on what you've read so far, and your familiarity 25 with the document, do you have an opinion as to who the author 00301 { 5:31:21pm} 01 of this document is? 02 A. Yes. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, we'll object to that 04 opinion. There's no foundation. 05 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Do you have an understanding as to 06 who the author of the paper is? 07 A. Yes. 08 MR. ABOWITZ: Same objection. 09 THE COURT: Lay a predicate as to what he bases his 10 understanding on. 11 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Sure. 12 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) You mentioned that you visited with 13 Dr. Sadler in 1962 in Chicago; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you've reviewed this document and you've recited for 16 the jury portions of the conversation with Dr. Sadler. Is 17 there anything regarding the relationship between that 18 conversation and this document which makes you have what you 19 consider an understanding of who the author is? 20 A. There's so much in this written history both in what is 21 said and the way it is said that is similar or -- similar -- 22 almost identical or identical to my recollection that I have -- 23 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. He may 24 express his -- 25 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Go ahead and just -- 00302 { 5:31:26pm} 01 A. I have no doubt that Dr. Sadler wrote this history. What 02 he told me verbally and what he told me here is the same. 03 Q. Let's go to paragraph 3 on that page, page 8, if you 04 would. Please pick up the reading again. Judging -- I don't 05 know what this document is dated. I don't think it is. Where 06 Dr. Sadler says that at the date the organization, that 17 of 07 the charter members of the organization are still living, 08 judging by what you know and this doesn't have to be from 09 Dr. Sadler's conversation with you, when about would this have 10 been? If you do the math, it's pretty obvious that that's a 11 lot of people to be very old out of 30. 12 A. I think this was probably done in the late '50s, sometime 13 after the publication of the book. Between '55 and '60. 14 Q. Why don't you start with paragraph 3 then. 15 A. "The individuals charged with the responsibility of 16 gathering up the questions and comparing the typewritten text 17 with the original handwritten manuscript came to be known as 18 the Contact Commissioners. From that date forward, only these 19 Contact Commissioners attended contacts and received written 20 communications through the contact personality." 21 Q. Why don't you start -- go ahead and take the last 22 paragraph, please. 23 A. "From time to time, new members were received into The 24 Forum, after being interviewed by the officers and after 25 signing the same pledge that was signed by the original charter 00303 { 5:31:32pm} 01 members. This pledge read, 'We acknowledge our pledge of 02 secrecy, renewing our promise not to discuss the Urantia 03 revelations or their subject matter with any" -- and I can't 04 read that word -- "with anyone save the active Forum members, 05 and to take no notes of such matter as is read or discussed at 06 the public" -- "at the public" -- I don't know that word -- "or 07 make copies or notes of what we personally read." 08 Q. Okay. Let's talk -- 09 A. "Public meetings." 10 Q. Let's talk about that a moment. Did Sadler -- Based on 11 your conversation with Dr. Sadler, did he ever tell you 12 anything regarding the oath of secrecy and the steps that The 13 Forum and Contact Commission took to enforce this oath of 14 secrecy? 15 A. Steps they took to enforce it? 16 Q. Well, I think, if you'll look at the bottom paragraph, was 17 there some prohibition on removing -- 18 A. Yes. Excuse me. Finish your sentence. 19 Q. -- removing notes that were taken at meetings? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you like to expand on that? 22 A. I don't think I have anything to add to this. They 23 couldn't talk -- I remember he told me they could not 24 communicate anything to their spouses, to their children, to 25 their loved ones until after the book was published. 00304 { 5:31:40pm} 01 Q. Was there a similar prohibition regarding the papers? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Were they allowed to take papers off of the premises of 04 533 Diversey? 05 A. Never. Never. 06 Q. When someone wished to read a paper individually, was 07 there a process they had to go through? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Would you please tell the jury about that process. 10 A. They had to go to Dr. Sadler's residence, now the 11 headquarters of Urantia Foundation, and check a paper out, and 12 read it in a certain room that to this day is called The Forum 13 Room. Then when they left that room, they had to turn in the 14 paper. 15 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Would you please turn to page 9? 16 A. So, to my knowledge, it was certainly not allowed out of 17 the headquarters. It wasn't even allowed out of The Forum 18 Room. 19 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) We talked at some length and we've 20 shown in the history of the Urantia movement paper that there 21 was a questioning process. Do you have an understanding from 22 your conversation with Dr. Sadler about when the questioning 23 process concluded, at which point in time there were no more 24 questions? 25 A. Yes. 00305 { 5:31:44pm} 01 Q. Would you please tell the jury when that was. 02 A. 1942, May 31. 03 Q. Would you please read that page to the jury. 04 A. "The last meeting of The Forum as a genetic assembly was 05 held on May 31, 1942. During the 17 years of official 06 existence, The Forum attained a total membership of" -- it 07 looks like "486." I'm not sure 08 Q. Would you read the second paragraph. You can skip the 09 handwriting. I don't think anybody can read that. 10 A. "During the period of the reception of the Urantia Papers, 11 upwards of 360 different persons participated in asking these 12 genetic questions. With but few exceptions, all of the Urantia 13 Papers were given in response to such questions." 14 Q. When it says, "With all but few exceptions," did 15 Dr. Sadler say what those exceptions were? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what those exceptions were? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you have an understanding, your own personal 20 understanding, of what the term "genetic", as used on that 21 page, means? 22 A. I was earlier mentioning this. Genetic to me has to do 23 with genes and has something to do with originating, 24 initiating. So that these weren't -- I don't know what other 25 questions. They weren't flat questions, they weren't innocuous 00306 { 5:31:52pm} 01 questions. They were -- 02 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'll object. This is 03 speculation. 04 THE COURT: Sustained. 05 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you please turn to page 20. 06 If you can, would you please read that first paragraph, 07 please, and the title. 08 A. "Reason For Silence" -- and I don't know the next word -- 09 "Details of The Origin of The Urantia Book." That may be -- I 10 don't know. Speculation, am I permitted? 11 Q. No, don't worry about that. Just read the first 12 paragraph. 13 A. "Among the several reasons given us at the time we were" 14 -- I don't know -- "we were" something -- "we were 15 requested" -- "we were requested not to discuss the details of 16 our personal experience associated with the origin of The 17 Urantia Book, the" -- something -- "major reasons were the 18 following." 19 Q. Would you please read number 1. 20 A. "1. Unknown Features. There is" -- I don't know that 21 word -- "there is something connected with the appearance of 22 The Urantia Papers which no human being fully understands. 23 None of us really knows just how this phenomenon was executed. 24 There are numerous missing links in our understanding of how 25 this revelation came to appear in written English. 00307 { 5:31:58pm} 01 "If anyone of us should tell any one all we really know 02 about the technique and methods employed throughout the years 03 of our getting this revelation, such a narration would satisfy 04 no one - there are too many missing links." 05 Q. Would one of those missing links be how the papers 06 appeared in handwriting of the subject? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Would you please read number 2. 09 A. "The main reason for not revealing the identity of the 10 contact personality is that the celestial revelators do not 11 want any human being - any human name - ever to be associated 12 with The Urantia Book. They want this revelation to stand on 13 its own declarations and teachings." 14 Q. And would you read the last part of that. 15 A. "They are determined that future generations shall have 16 the book wholly free from all mortal" -- "all mortal" -- I 17 don't know. It looks like "evolutionary" -- "all mortal" -- 18 Q. That's all right. The jury can read it as well. Why 19 don't we move on. 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Do we have 21? Do we have 21? 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 22? 22 MR. ABOWITZ: Excuse me. I thought that was 21. 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: You're right. I'm sorry. 24 MR. ABOWITZ: We're going to a different one? 25 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Yes. 00308 { 5:32:02pm} 01 A. Oh, it was, "From all mortal connections." 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Turn to the next page, please 03 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you please read that entire 04 page. 05 A. "The First Urantia" -- I don't know. "The First Urantia 06 Papers," I think. 07 "The first group of papers numbered 57. We then received 08 a communication suggesting that since we could not ask many and 09 much more intelligent questions, the experiment" -- oh, boy, I 10 don't know. "The super" -- "the" something -- "the super" -- 11 something -- "agencies and personalities responsible for 12 transmitting the 57 papers would engage to enlarge the 13 revelation and to expand the papers in accordance with our new 14 questions. 15 "This was the plan: We would read a paper on Sunday 16 afternoon and the following Sunday the new questions would be 17 presented. Again, there would be" -- "these would be sorted 18 classified, etc. This process covered several years and 19 ultimately resulted in the presentation of the 196 papers as 20 now found in The Urantia Book." 21 Q. So, based on your conversation with Dr. Sadler and this 22 document, do you have an understanding as to whether the papers 23 came all at once? 24 A. They did not. 25 Q. How did they arrive? 00309 { 5:32:10pm} 01 A. As this said, and I remember distinctly his telling me the 02 story about these first 57 papers. They'd been having the 03 questions and answers, and the celestial beings said, "Well, if 04 you knew then -- if you knew now what you knew then, would you 05 be able to ask better questions?" and they said, "Yes," and 06 they said, "Okay, we're starting all over again." 07 Q. Let's turn to the next page, please. We're going to take 08 it from the top, Mr. Keeler, starting with the title, please. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, may I inquire as to what 10 page of the exhibit this is? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Mr. Keeler, can you read the page 13 on the exhibit, please? 14 A. I'm trying. 15 Q. No; the very bottom of the page, the written page, right 16 in front of you, does that have a page number? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What page number is it? 19 A. 23. 20 MR. ABOWITZ: May I look at your exhibit? 21 MR. SCHOENTHALER: You can't look at mine. Mine's -- 22 well, come here. You can look at mine. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: I don't want to see your secrets. Just 24 let me look at the numbers. 25 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Look at his. 00310 { 5:32:14pm} 01 MR. ABOWITZ: Oh, I see. Okay. Thank you. I'm 02 sorry, Your Honor. 03 A. I don't know what it says at the top. 04 Q. Okay. Go ahead and just read from the first paragraph, 05 please. 06 A. "In a way, there was a third presentation. After 07 receiving these 196 papers, we were told that the revelatory 08 commission would be pleased to have us" -- something -- "have 09 us go over the papers" -- "go over the papers once more and ask 10 questions concerning the clarification of concepts and the 11 removal of ambiguities. This program again covered several 12 years. During this period, very little new information was 13 imparted. Only minor changes were made in any of the papers. 14 Some matter was added - some removed - but there was little 15 revision or amplification of the text." 16 Q. Okay. And now would you please read for the jury that 17 last paragraph. 18 A. "What has been recorded refers more particularly to parts 19 I, II, and III of The Urantia Book. Part IV, The Jesus Papers, 20 had a little different origin. They were produced by a 21 midwayer commission and were completed one year later than the 22 other papers. The first three parts were completed and 23 certified to us in A.D. 1934. The Jesus Papers were not" -- 24 something -- "delivered to us until 1935." 25 Q. Now, I believe counsel for Harry McMullan and Michael 00311 { 5:32:22pm} 01 Foundation discussed with you that the papers were delivered by 02 1935. Do you recall that testimony? 03 A. That -- yes, 1935. They were all there before 1936. 04 Q. Do you recall, from your conversation with Dr. Sadler and 05 your familiarity with this paper, whether the papers, all 196 06 of the papers, were completed in 1935? 07 A. No, they were not. 08 Q. When were they completed? 09 A. In 1942. 10 Q. Would that be when the last genetic question was asked? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And look at that final paragraph on this page. I believe 13 counsel for Michael Foundation and Harry McMullan spoke with 14 you about the possibility that the Jesus papers, which is part 15 IV of The Urantia Book, came all at once. Is there anything in 16 that paragraph that says they came all at once? 17 A. No. 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Do we have the last page? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 29? 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Whatever the last one is. 21 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you read that last page for 22 me, please. 23 A. "The Urantia Foundation. It was these plates of The 24 Urantia Book which contributed to the basis for the formation 25 of The Urantia Foundation. This foundation, set up under the 00312 { 5:32:28pm} 01 laws of Illinois, was completed on January 11th, 1950. The 02 first board of trustees were: William H. or K. Hales, 03 president; William S. Sadler, Jr., vice president; Emma L. 04 Christensen, secretary; Wilfred C. Kellogg, treasurer; and 05 Edith Cook, assistant secretary." 06 Q. Keep reading. 07 A. "It was learned that one of the wealthy members of The 08 Forum desired to contribute $50,000 for the publication of the 09 book. By instruction, this was circumvented because, they told 10 us, it was best to give all parties concerned an opportunity to 11 contribute to the publication fund." 12 Q. Let me stop you for a second. 13 Who do you believe "they" in that paragraph to be? 14 A. The revelatory commission, the celestial beings. 15 Q. Thank you. 16 Please continue. 17 A. "Accordingly, an appeal was made for $50,000 to defray the 18 expense of printing 10,000 copies. In" -- it looks like "ink" 19 -- "In response" -- oh -- "the response was immediate. The sum 20 contributed was in excess of $49,000. The first money to reach 21 The Foundation office was $1,000 from the late Sir Hubert 22 Wilkins, the arctic explorer. 23 "The book was published under international copyright 24 October 12th, 1955." 25 Q. Where there's a discussion of funds raised, do you have an 00313 { 5:32:36pm} 01 understanding of where those funds came from? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Who did those funds come from? 04 A. The members of The Forum and the Contact Commissioners. 05 Q. Let's move on to the subject. When I say "subject," I 06 mean the contact. Did Dr. Sadler tell you anything about him 07 personally? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Share with the jury what Dr. Sadler told you. 10 A. He said he was a businessman; he was a man, a male; and he 11 was remarkably unconcerned about what was trans- -- what he was 12 doing in connection with the Urantia Papers but he did evince 13 some interest in the papers. 14 Q. Did Dr. Sadler -- 15 A. And the contents of the paper. 16 Q. Sorry. 17 Did Dr. Sadler say whether the subject was aware while he 18 was involved in the transmissions? 19 A. He said he was not aware. 20 Q. So at some point -- 21 A. He referred to him as the sleeping subject. 22 Q. At some point, I gather, he became aware? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And how was that? 25 A. He was permitted to read the papers. 00314 { 5:32:40pm} 01 Q. Did he make any comments regarding his handwriting being 02 on the papers? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. What were those comments? 05 A. He said that the papers were written in his handwriting 06 and he said that whoever, whatever was writing, that they, 07 whatever was going on, they could cash a check and take money 08 out of his bank account. 09 Q. You said the patient had some interest. Is there anything 10 in The Urantia Book that supports what Dr. Sadler told you? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Are we talking now about the interest? 13 THE COURT: Restate your question, counselor. 14 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) We're talking about the interest of 15 the subject in the process? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you pick up -- I'm not sure of the exhibit number. 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I approach, Your Honor? 19 Do you have exhibit 25? 20 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: It hasn't been offered and 21 admitted. 22 THE COURT: I think it was the first day, The Urantia 23 Book was. 24 MR. HILL: We stipulated that it would be admitted as 25 Urantia Foundation exhibit 1-B, Your Honor. 00315 { 5:32:46pm} 01 THE COURT: 1-B. Do you have it marked? 02 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I'll double check, Your Honor, 03 but I don't think so. 04 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you please do your best to 05 find that passage? 06 THE COURT: It will be admitted any how. 07 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Okay. 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Have you found it? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You're better at that than you are reading off the board. 12 Would you please read that to the jury, please. 13 A. You can read this more easily from there than we could 14 read that from here. 15 The Urantia Book says, regarding the sleeping subject: 16 "He remains" -- 17 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, Your Honor, I'm going to 18 object to this. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted into evidence, 20 The Urantia Book, and he can recite from it. 21 MR. ABOWITZ: Okay. 22 A. "He remains quite unconcerned about the entire procedure." 23 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Okay. Thank you very much. 24 Now, there was some questions raised or some discussion 25 yesterday that might have carried on to today, I don't recall, 00316 { 5:32:51pm} 01 regarding the destruction of certain documents by The Contact 02 Commission. Can you tell me what documents were destroyed and 03 when and the purpose? Would you please tell me what documents 04 were destroyed by The Contact Commission. 05 A. Yes. The stenographer that was taking down all the verbal 06 communications from 1922 through 1955, I was told that there 07 were stacks -- there were many, many, maybe they used the word 08 "stacks" and I can see stacks of documents, and Dr. Sadler told 09 me that on the night before the books -- The Urantia Book was 10 supposed to roll off the press, which was October 12th, or at 11 least it was published October 12th, so I would imagine October 12 11th, that on the third floor at 533 they sat -- that they 13 burned -- 14 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm going to ask that that 15 testimony be stricken about what he imagines. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Let's restate the question so we 18 don't get any question about what was stricken. 19 Please tell the jury what documents were destroyed. 20 A. All of the record of the verbal communications, I was 21 told, were destroyed the night before the book was to roll off 22 the presses, by fire. They were burned. 23 Q. And at a later time, were the printing plates also 24 destroyed? 25 A. Yes, that's my understanding. 00317 { 5:32:57pm} 01 Q. Why? Did Dr. Sadler give you a reason for why these 02 things were destroyed? 03 A. The papers? 04 Q. The handwritten papers and the printing plates. 05 A. I don't think he said anything about the printing plates. 06 He just talked about the papers. 07 Q. Tell the jury about why. 08 A. The revelators said, "The only thing we want remaining of 09 this 50-year exchange that has gone on, the only thing we want 10 remaining is the material that's in The Urantia Book." We -- 11 well, that's what he told me. 12 Q. Now, this entire process was discussed at some length. 13 There's been some question raised as to whether the people in 14 The Forum and The Contact Commission, and even the subject, 15 were on board with what was going on. 16 Did Dr. Sadler ever tell you that anybody in The Forum 17 complained about The Urantia Book being published or the 18 process that led up to it? 19 MR. ABOWITZ: I'm going to object to the form, Your 20 Honor. It's somewhat convoluted. 21 THE COURT: Restate your question again, counselor. 22 I'm not sure I fully -- 23 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Certainly. 24 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Did Dr. Sadler tell you whether any 25 member of The Forum ever complained about The Contact 00318 { 5:33:03pm} 01 Commission -- I'm sorry -- The Urantia Foundation printing The 02 Urantia Book? 03 THE COURT: All right. Overruled. He can answer it. 04 A. He said nothing about anyone having ever complained about 05 The Contact Commission's or Urantia Foundation's management of 06 The Urantia Book. 07 Q. Did he tell you whether the subject ever raised any 08 complaints or asserted any legal rights? 09 A. He said nothing about that. 10 Q. Well, I believe you testified yesterday, and correct me if 11 I'm wrong, that the subject was alive in 1950, was he not? 12 A. I think I said in 1955 he was alive. 13 Q. Well, the book was published in 1955, wasn't it? 14 A. True. 15 Q. Dr. Sadler didn't say anything about the subject 16 complaining that someone was stealing his work? 17 A. He said nothing about that. 18 THE COURT: Counsel, let's take a recess at this 19 point. 20 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Certainly. 21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we'll 22 be recess for 15 minutes. Be back in the jury box at the end 23 of 15 minutes. I'll remind you of my previous admonition. 24 Everyone please stand. 25 Court's in recess. 00319 { 5:33:07pm} 01 02 (A RECESS WAS HAD, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 03 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF 04 THE JURY:) 05 THE COURT: Mr. Schoenthaler, go ahead, sir. 06 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Thank you. 07 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Mr. Keeler, are you familiar 08 with -- are you familiar with a document known as Urantia 09 Foundation Declaration of Trust? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How familiar are you with the document? 12 A. Very familiar. 13 Q. Okay. 14 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Can you put -- Exhibit 5 has been 15 stipulated into evidence. 16 MR. ABOWITZ: No objection. 17 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Now, put up Urantia Foundation 18 exhibit 5, please. 19 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Is that the first page of the 20 Declaration of Trust? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you see underneath the three concentric blue circles, 23 what does it say directly underneath? 24 A. "Declaration of Trust Creating Urantia Foundation." 25 Q. And between the two items we just discussed in bold 00320 { 5:33:11pm} 01 caps -- you can look behind you. It's right under the 02 concentric circles. 03 A. "Urantia." 04 Q. And is there something next to "Urantia"? 05 A. A circle R. 06 Q. And what does that mean, Mr. Keeler? 07 A. It means that the word "Urantia" is a registered 08 trademark. 09 Q. Thank you. 10 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Would you please turn to, I think, 11 page 3. 12 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you please -- What is the 13 Declaration of Trust, Mr. Keeler? 14 A. It is a document, the legal document that created -- that 15 brought into the existence The Urantia Foundation in January, 16 January 11th, 1950. 17 Q. And are the trustees of Urantia Foundation in any way 18 governed by the document? 19 A. They are, indeed. I was about to use the word 20 "absolutely." 21 Q. Would you please, underneath the title, "Declaration of 22 Trust," read the first paragraph and the first whereas clause. 23 You might -- well, you can probably see that. 24 A. "Know all men by these presents, that whereas, there has 25 been written a manuscript of a book entitled "The Urantia Book" 00321 { 5:33:18pm} 01 and there have been produced from this manuscript approximately 02 2,200 nickel-plated stereotype plates of patent base thickness 03 for the printing and reproduction of such book; and, whereas, 04 certain persons hereinafter referred to as the contributors, 05 being desirous that a foundation be created for the objects 06 herein expressed to be known as Urantia Foundation, have 07 contributed certain funds to that end, and said funds have been 08 expended for the production of said plates for the printing and 09 reproduction of The Urantia Book." 10 Q. Do you have an understanding as to who the persons in 11 quotes, "contributors," were? 12 A. I believe they were members of The Contact Commission and 13 members of The Forum. 14 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Would you please turn it to page 15 5. 16 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Would you please read right there, 17 3.3. 18 A. "Preservation and Control of Reproduction of The Urantia 19 Book." 20 "It shall be the duty of the trustees to retain absolute 21 and unconditional control of all plates and other media for the 22 printing and reproduction of The Urantia Book and any 23 translations thereof, to make or cause to be made such 24 additional plates and other media as shall from time to time be 25 required to print and reproduce the Urantia Book and any 00322 { 5:33:24pm} 01 translation thereof, to retain the absolute and unconditional 02 control of the possession, custody, use, and disposition of all 03 such plates and other media for the printing and reproduction 04 of The Urantia Book and translations thereof, and to apply and 05 use the trust estate therefore." 06 Q. Do you feel any need as a trustee to follow that 07 admonition? 08 A. Absolutely. 09 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Can you turn it -- put it on 10 section 3.1. I think it might be the previous page. 11 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Mr. Keeler, by the way, how much 12 are you paid for being a trustee of The Foundation? 13 A. We receive no compensation. 14 Q. Have the trustees of Urantia Foundation ever received any 15 compensation? 16 A. No trustee has ever received any compensation. 17 Q. Now, will you please read section 3.1. 18 A. "Duties of Trustees. Preservation of text of The Urantia 19 Book. It shall be the primary duty of the trustees to 20 perpetually preserve inviolate the text of The Urantia Book, 21 and the trustees shall use and employ such means, methods, and 22 facilities and apply and expend as much of the trust estate as 23 in the judgment of the trustees shall be necessary, proper, and 24 appropriate for the preserving and safekeeping of copies of the 25 original text of The Urantia Book, duly authenticated by the 00323 { 5:33:31pm} 01 trustees from loss, damage or destruction and from alteration, 02 modification, revision or change in any manner or in any 03 particular." 04 Q. There is a term in that paragraph: "inviolate." What is 05 your understanding of what that term means? 06 A. Changeless. 07 Q. Now, do you have an understanding as to the book Jesus - A 08 New Revelation? Do you know who publishes it? 09 A. I beg your pardon? 10 Q. Do you know who publishes the book Jesus - A New 11 Revelation, which has been admitted into evidence? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: We'll stipulate to its publisher, 14 Judge. 15 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect. 16 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) There was some conversation 17 yesterday with counsel for Mr. McMullan that there was an 18 opportunity for Urantia Foundation to have attribution in Jesus 19 - A New Revelation. Do you recall that testimony? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you please tell the jury why the trustees of Urantia 22 Foundation chose not to accept that offer. 23 THE WITNESS: Let me get a running start on this, 24 Judge. 25 THE COURT: Sure. 00324 { 5:33:37pm} 01 A. My great grandfather came into the State of Oklahoma to 02 trade with the Indians and married an Indian woman. 03 MR. ABOWITZ: Not responsive, Judge. 04 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll allow him some leeway. 05 A. And my family has been in the ranching business ever 06 since. Now, if somebody drove up to the ranch, our ranch, and 07 we had, let's say 2,000 cattle -- there are 2,000 pages in The 08 Urantia Book -- and we had 2,000 cattle, and they put in their 09 trucks, they put hundreds of those cattle, they put 800 of the 10 cattle and they drove off with the cattle, we would call them 11 rustlers. 12 And then if the rustlers were to come to us and say, 13 "Well, we're going to sell these cattle and we would like to 14 tell the buyers of the cattle that the cattle were raised on 15 your ranch," I can't imagine any of my family accepting that. 16 We would not tolerate that. 17 In effect, Mr. McMullan has done that; he's rustled the 18 cattle of Urantia Foundation and then he came to us and said, 19 "Well, do you want me to put in the front of my book that this 20 book is published by Urantia Foundation?" 21 Q. And when you say "this book," do you mean the attribution 22 of the Urantia -- that this is drawn from The Urantia Book? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you have an understanding of what a copyright is, 25 Mr. Keeler? A general understanding and not a legal 00325 { 5:33:44pm} 01 understanding. 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Would you explain to the jury your understanding of what a 04 copyright is. 05 A. Well, if you write -- if any of you write, if you author a 06 book and you would like others not to copy your book or any 07 part of your book without your permission, then you take a 08 copyright out -- you copyright your book, and if someone 09 infringes, if someone tries to reproduce your book or do 10 something with your book without your permission, then you can 11 go to -- you can go to the court and ask them -- ask a judge to 12 stop that person who is doing with your book that which they do 13 not have permission to do. 14 Q. Do you have an understanding -- strike that. 15 Does Urantia Foundation own a copyright of The Urantia 16 Book? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Let's talk about something the counsel for Harry McMullan 19 raised. He mentioned a fair-use policy and showed it to you up 20 on the screen. Please describe, in very general terms, and not 21 in any legal terms, because I understand you're not a lawyer, 22 what is a fair-use policy? 23 A. This book that I talked about, you wrote a book, you might 24 say if somebody wants to quote from your book, you allow them 25 to do so but you may allow them only so many words. You don't 00326 { 5:33:50pm} 01 want to let them quote the -- well, I don't know, you may -- 02 but you don't want to let them quote the whole book, so you 03 have a fair use. You say, "You can, without any problems with 04 me, any problems from the courts and the law, I will give you 05 or anyone permission to quote so many words from the book." 06 In the case of The Urantia Book, we allow anyone, without 07 asking for permission, to quote a certain number of words. 08 That number of words is somewhere between, depending on what 09 you want to do. If you're going to do something commercial 10 with it, you're going to use it in something from which you're 11 going to make money, somebody is going to write a book and 12 quote The Urantia Book in their book, then that individual can 13 quote up to 5,000 words from The Urantia Book without asking us 14 for permission. 15 And, also, if you're a teacher in school and you want your 16 students to read some of The Urantia Book, you can quote up to 17 50,000 words. See, that's a noncommercial use, so we're more 18 liberal with our fair use or permission to quote. Really, it 19 could be called a permission-to-quote policy. 20 Q. Now, do you have an understanding of how many papers or 21 pages Jesus - A New Revelation takes directly from The Urantia 22 Book? 23 A. Well, I know it's about -- I've got a copy here -- I think 24 it's about a thousand-page book. 25 Q. Would you hold up The Urantia Book and Jesus - A New 00327 { 5:33:57pm} 01 Revelation, please. 02 A. Hold up The Urantia Book, and hold up Jesus - A New 03 Revelation. 04 Q. In general terms, about what percentage does Jesus - A New 05 Revelation take from The Urantia Book? What percentage of The 06 Urantia Book is copied in Jesus - A New Revelation? 07 A. Well, Urantia Book is about 2,000 pages. This book is 08 formatted differently, so there are about 1,000 pages in here. 09 But those 1,000 pages are 800 of the 2000 pages. So it's about 10 a third of The Urantia Book. 11 Q. Is that within The Urantia Foundation's fair-use policy? 12 A. Way, way beyond our fair-use policy. 13 Q. We're going to switch the topic now to something that's 14 been discussed: the domain names. 15 Now, do you have an understanding as to a claim Michael 16 Foundation has or had in this case concerning the Urantia 17 Foundation's trademarks? 18 A. Would you repeat that question? 19 Q. Did Harry McMullan have a claim in this case concerning 20 The Urantia Foundation's trademarks? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What was that claim? 23 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm going to object to the 24 response to that question. 25 THE COURT: I'm not sure he has the legal expertise 00328 { 5:34:04pm} 01 to explain that, counselor. I think you'll be given an 02 opportunity to. 03 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I'll wait. Thank you. 04 THE COURT: I think it might be beyond -- he may be 05 familiar with it, maybe better than some of the lawyers in the 06 courtroom and certainly the Judge, but I believe it would be 07 better if we restrict that to someone with a legal background. 08 MR. SCHOENTHALER: That's fine, Your Honor. 09 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Do you know what a registered 10 trademark is? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Would you explain to the jury what a registered trademark 13 is. 14 A. It's somewhat like a copyright. Coca Cola, for example, 15 they have the name Coca Cola and they don't want other people 16 using that name. They want to formally legally own that name 17 and they have registered the name Coca Cola so that you and I 18 cannot commercially use the name Coca Cola. We can't go out 19 and start selling Coca Cola hamburgers using their name. Also, 20 we can't do anything, even though we may not be making money 21 from it, we could not do anything that would be confusing. 22 Otherwise, the Coca Cola organization would object. So, to 23 trademark a name is a way to establish legal ownership in a 24 name or a word or a symbol. 25 Q. Mr. Keeler, is that a legal definition or a layman's 00329 { 5:34:10pm} 01 definition? 02 A. It is my definition, which is a layman's definition. 03 Q. Do you have any legal experience? 04 A. No. 05 MR. SCHOENTHALER: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 06 Put 4-A up, please. 07 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Could you turn around. You can 08 probably see it better over there. Can you tell the jury what 09 that document is? 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, we have no objection to 11 that series of exhibits. 12 THE COURT: It will be admitted. 13 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Thank you. 14 A. This is -- appears to be a copy of The Urantia 15 Foundation's registration of its trademarks. 16 Q. Is that the name that has been trademarked by that 17 ribboned copy? 18 A. I beg your pardon? 19 Q. Is that the trademark that is being registered with the 20 federal government? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that's Urantia, is it not? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Would you put 4-B up, please. 25 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) And is that -- what is this, 00330 { 5:34:15pm} 01 Mr. Keeler? 02 A. It shows The Urantia Foundation has registered a trademark 03 in -- 04 Q. For what purpose, Mr. Keeler? 05 A. Oh. For books in class 38, I-N-T. 06 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Can you go back to 4-A, please. 07 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Can you tell the jury the first 08 document that we pulled up and I've pulled up again, can you 09 tell the jury, by looking at the principal register, what 10 services or goods Urantia is registered for? 11 MR. ABOWITZ: I have no objection to leading 12 questions on these, Judge, to kind of move it along. 13 THE COURT: Go ahead. Go ahead. 14 A. For printed publications, books, booklets, brochures, 15 pamphlets, newsletters, bulletins and leaflets concerning 16 educational, religious, or philosophical subject. 17 Q. Thank you. 18 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Can you put up 4-C for me, please? 19 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Can you see that, Mr. Keeler? Can 20 you tell me what word is trademarked there? 21 A. Yes, the word "Urantian." 22 Q. Can you tell me what is the goods and services it is 23 registered for? 24 A. For periodical publications, namely, newsletters, 25 reporting events and developments relating to the operation and 00331 { 5:34:22pm} 01 activities of an educational foundation. 02 Q. Mr. Keeler, what's the address of Urantia Foundation 03 headquarters in Chicago? 04 A. 533 Diversey Parkway. 05 Q. Does Urantia Foundation have a toll-free telephone number? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. What is that? 08 A. There are three. 1-800-Urantia, 1-888-Urantia, and 09 1-877-Urantia. 10 Q. Do you know whether The Urantia Foundation has ever been 11 in a dispute concerning a toll-free number with Urantia's 12 trademark in the number? 13 A. I do know of such a dispute. 14 Q. Would you please tell the jury a little bit about the 15 dispute. 16 A. The organization of which Mr. McMullan is the treasurer, a 17 group called The Fellowship, attempted to obtain the number 18 1 -- I think it was one of the 800s. Oh, I know. It was 19 1-888-Urantia. And we informed them that we regarded their 20 having done that as a violation of our registration in the 21 marks, and they surrendered the number. 22 Q. Mr. Keeler, can you tell the jury what a domain name is? 23 A. We're talking the Internet now. If you establish a web 24 site, your company or you as an individual, then you have to 25 have some name, some identifier, and that identifier is called 00332 { 5:34:28pm} 01 a domain name. It's your domain. It's your identifier. In 02 trucking language, it's your handle. 03 Q. In what you're describing, would that start with a WWW? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. It might be WWW.CocaCola.com? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Or CocaCola.org? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Or anything dot-com? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Does Urantia Foundation maintain a web site? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would you describe in some detail the web site itself and 14 what services or goods you offer on the web site. 15 A. Yes. If you go to the Urantia -- it's called Urantia.org 16 -- "org" for organization and "com" has to do with commercial. 17 I think Coca Cola would be CocaCola.com. But anyway, it's 18 Urantia.org. And if you went there, you would find The Urantia 19 Book, the entire Urantia Book on our web site. You would find 20 information about different activities and events that were 21 related to Urantia Foundation. 22 If you wanted -- If you went to our web site and you 23 wanted to get in contact with other individuals who were 24 readers of The Urantia Book, then there is a means by which you 25 can do that through our web site. 00333 { 5:34:35pm} 01 Q. The web site again is what, WWW what, dot Urantia? 02 A. Yes, dot Urantia.org. 03 Q. I think you testified earlier that you do not really know 04 the exact domain names that Harry McMullan registered; is that 05 true? 06 A. True. 07 Q. Do you know whether or not they have the term "Urantia" or 08 "Urantian" in them? 09 A. I do know they have the term "Urantia" or "Urantian" in 10 them. 11 Q. Well, has Urantia Foundation taken any steps to register 12 the same domain names? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You've taken steps to register the same domain names that 15 Harry McMullan registered? 16 A. Well, I think once he registered them, then we could not 17 register them. He was occupying that space. 18 Q. So there was some 40 out there, and I don't know what it 19 is, that registers names? 20 A. That's true. 21 Q. And there can only be one registered domain name of the 22 same name? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. It's a little similar to an address or a toll-free phone 25 number? 00334 { 5:34:40pm} 01 A. Yes, exactly. 02 Q. Mr. Keeler, I have one more question. 03 Regarding the domain names, what does Urantia Foundation 04 want in this litigation? 05 A. Would you repeat that? 06 Q. What does Urantia Foundation want in this litigation 07 regarding the domain names? 08 A. We want -- well, the Judge has already declared -- 09 MR. ABOWITZ: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 10 that. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Just answer the 12 question. 13 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) Just tell the jury what Urantia 14 Foundation wants. 15 A. We want Harry to surrender these domain names to us, which 16 we feel we are the rightful owners of in the same manner that 17 the organization of which he's the treasurer, The Fellowship, 18 surrendered their 1-888-Urantia telephone number to us. 19 Q. Without divulging the exact amount, can you tell the jury 20 whether Urantia Foundation has spent attorney's fees on trying 21 to -- on seeking a return of the domain names in this case? 22 MR. ABOWITZ: We're going to object to that at this 23 stage, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: I think he can outline what they're 25 requesting or asking in the way of a remedy. He doesn't have 00335 { 5:34:47pm} 01 to be a lawyer to do that. 02 A. For just the domain names? 03 Q. (BY MR. SCHOENTHALER) I don't want an exact number. I 04 just want to know if Urantia Foundation has expended attorney's 05 fees and costs. 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Would Urantia Foundation also seek to recover those 08 attorney's fees and costs? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is there anything else Urantia Foundation would seek to 11 recover regarding the domain names? 12 A. Not that comes to mind. 13 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Thank you. That's all. 14 THE COURT: Any redirect? 15 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes. 16 May I approach the bench? 17 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE BENCH, OUT OF 18 HEARING OF THE JURY:) 19 MR. ABOWITZ: I want to renew my request now to get 20 into Mr. McMullan's offer of the domain names to The Urantia 21 Foundation. The door has been opened. 22 MR. SCHOENTHALER: Your Honor, I was very careful not 23 to open the door. 24 THE COURT: Pardon? 25 MR. SCHOENTHALER: I was very careful not to open the 00336 { 5:34:51pm} 01 door. I just asked what they wanted. 02 THE COURT: Wherein do you think he opened the door 03 now? 04 MR. ABOWITZ: When he asked Mr. Keeler what he wanted 05 from this litigation. 06 THE COURT: That's only requesting what their relief 07 is requested in this case. That doesn't open the door. 08 MR. PLOURDE: It's the timing aspect of it because 09 he's saying, "Because of all this, we've incurred all these 10 fees," and if they had taken the settlement offer that we 11 offered way back when, they wouldn't have incurred all those 12 fees. 13 THE COURT: I think not, counsel. I believe you 14 ought to stay away from it. 15 MR. ABOWITZ: I can keep trying? 16 THE COURT: You can keep trying and I'll sustain the 17 objection. 18 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT AND 19 WITHIN THE PRESENCE AND HEARING OF THE JURY:) 20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 22 Q. Mr. Keeler, the document, which is the Declaration of 23 Trust, was prepared in what year? 24 A. I have reason to believe it was -- 25 Q. Let's find out rather than -- I think it's on there. 00337 { 5:35:00pm} 01 A. Yeah. It was in preparation before January 11th, 1950, 02 but officially it took effect on January 11th, 1950. 03 Q. Was the patient still alive? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Was he consulted -- 06 A. To my knowledge. 07 Q. Was he consulted about this? 08 A. I don't know. 09 Q. Is there any documentation that would indicate that he was 10 consulted about this? 11 A. None that I know of. 12 Q. Is there any documentation to establish that he 13 essentially waived any interest that he had in this? 14 A. None that I know of. 15 Q. Or that he assigned any interest that he had in this? 16 A. No assignments that I'm aware of. 17 Q. So this document, by the contributors, was put together 18 excluding anything that -- any interest that the patient may 19 have had? 20 A. I think so. 21 Q. Now, these conversations with Dr. Sadler took place when? 22 A. The conversation that I had with Dr. Sadler? 23 Q. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 24 A. The one big one was in 1962. 25 Q. And that big one lasted how long? 00338 { 5:35:05pm} 01 A. Between three and five hours. 02 Q. Are you a baseball fan? 03 A. Not really. 04 Q. Do you follow any sports? 05 A. Sometimes. 06 Q. Do you know any major -- the name of any major sports team 07 that won a championship in 1962? 08 A. I could make a stab at it. 09 Q. Well, this is not the millionaire now. 10 A. Not definitively, no. 11 Q. And you certainly have to admit that you definitively 12 remember this conversation that you had with Dr. Sadler? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Did you record it? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you take notes on it? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you had -- and I don't mean to be facetious -- have 19 you had a memory course on how to remember these things? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what's the name of the course? 22 A. It was a course on tape that I took. I don't recall the 23 name of it. 24 Q. You took a memory course and you don't recall the name of 25 it? Thank you. I'll stop there. Thank you. 00339 { 5:35:12pm} 01 Now, you told me -- 02 A. The older I get -- 03 Q. I'm moving on. I can't get any better than that, sir. 04 Now, you told me -- yesterday, we had a conversation about 05 this oath; correct? 06 A. About what? 07 Q. The oath. 08 A. The oath? 09 Q. Of secrecy. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let me see if I can turn to exhibit 8. 12 MR. ABOWITZ: Sir, I believe it's exhibit 20. Can 13 you help me out here? 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: What page is that, sir? 15 MR. ABOWITZ: I believe it's exhibit -- I'm sorry. 16 Page 20 of exhibit 8. 17 May I approach the -- 18 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) You have it on the screen behind you. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: That's not much better. Do you have a 20 contrast you can put on that that we can see it a little 21 better? 22 That doesn't help out very much. 23 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) As I read this, what is this word? Can 24 you make it out? 25 A. "Reasons," I think. "Reasons for Silence Regarding 00340 { 5:35:16pm} 01 Details." 02 Q. And it's details of the origin of the book; is that 03 correct? 04 A. That's what it says. 05 Q. And you told me yesterday, I believe, that this oath of 06 secrecy taken by the Contact Commissioners and the members of 07 The Forum involved in some part the facts associated with the 08 origin of The Urantia Book. 09 A. That's the way I understand it. 10 Q. And nothing you have testified to in response to your 11 lawyer's questions changes that answer; is that correct? 12 A. It doesn't change my answer. 13 Q. And you were never subjected, I think you say, to that 14 oath? 15 A. True. 16 Q. And that oath lasted how long? The people that took it, 17 was it something that they were essentially to obey until their 18 death? 19 A. I think so. 20 Q. All right. And did Dr. Sadler take that oath? 21 A. As far as I know. 22 Q. He did? 23 And in 1962, when you met him, how many times had you met 24 him? 25 A. That was the first time. 00341 { 5:35:21pm} 01 Q. And you were not a member of The Forum? 02 A. True. 03 Q. You were not a member of The Contact Commission? 04 A. True. 05 Q. You were, as far as he knew, a person who was merely 06 interested at the time with respect to the teachings of The 07 Urantia Book? 08 A. True. 09 Q. What your testimony is here, in this five-hour session he 10 related to you all the facts about the origin of The Urantia 11 Book? 12 A. I dare say he didn't begin to relate to me all of the 13 facts relating to the origin of The Urantia Book. 14 Q. But he took an oath not to reveal those facts but he told 15 you essentially the facts -- 16 A. Well, -- 17 Q. Let me finish my question. 18 -- facts regarding the origin of The Urantia Book; is that 19 what you're telling us? 20 A. Yes. It's obvious he felt comfortable to share with me 21 some of those facts. 22 Q. All right. Now, in that connection, is it true that over 23 the years, in response of The Foundation's response to the 24 people that were inquiring of it, that the response would be to 25 people who asked about the origin essentially, "Don't pay any 00342 { 5:35:28pm} 01 attention to the origin; your attention should be directed to 02 the substance of The Urantia Book which will reveal that to 03 you"? 04 A. That's a fairly accurate statement. 05 Q. Now, did Dr. Sadler say, "I am not concerned and you 06 should not be concerned with the origin but you should, if you 07 are a follower of this book, read the book and anything that 08 you need to know about the origin will be revealed to you in 09 the book"? 10 A. I think that he said something to that effect. 11 Q. You didn't mention that before I asked, did you? 12 A. Well, I said I think he said something. I don't know that 13 he did. 14 Q. You don't know? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Well, if that's what they told everybody else, can you 17 think of a reason why you wouldn't have been told the same 18 thing? 19 A. No, but I don't recall specifically his having told me 20 that. 21 Q. All right. Now, can you please, sir -- let me see if I 22 can find the page here. 23 MR. ABOWITZ: I apologize, Judge. My copy of this 24 doesn't have those sequential numbers on it. 25 Please, can you give me -- I tried to number these 00343 { 5:35:35pm} 01 counting while the testimony was going on. I have it marked as 02 16, which is a distribution of The Urantia Book. May I have 03 that, please? 04 Can you scroll it down? 05 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Can you see that from here or your 06 screen? 07 MR. ABOWITZ: Would you highlight that last 08 paragraph? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Incidentally, whose mark is that? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Is it yours? 13 A. Could be. I don't know where your copy is. 14 Q. This is not my copy. This is your copy. 15 A. Oh. 16 Q. Your Urantia Foundation's copy. 17 A. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes I make marks 18 in columns somewhat similar to that. 19 Q. Do you know if the exhibit in evidence is your copy of 20 this? 21 A. I don't. 22 Q. Read this last paragraph for me, please. 23 A. "One thing should be made clear: Nothing is done to 24 interfere with the energetic and enthusiastic efforts of any 25 individual to introduce The Urantia Book to his varied contacts 00344 { 5:35:42pm} 01 and human associations." 02 Q. Is Mr. McMullan energetic? 03 A. Very. 04 Q. And he's very enthusiastic? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. And he's very energetic and enthusiastic in introducing 07 The Urantia Book and Jesus - A New Revelation, which is part of 08 the Urantia Book, to all of his associates; is that correct? 09 A. You could say that. 10 Q. Would you -- 11 MR. ABOWITZ: I have this listed as page number 23. 12 Would you scroll that down, please. The last paragraph. 13 That's fine. 14 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) I don't want to labor through the 15 reading. Can you read that without too much trouble? Can we 16 do it fairly quickly? 17 A. Perhaps. 18 Q. Let's give it a try. 19 A. "What has just been recorded" -- I don't know that word -- 20 oh -- "refers more particularly to parts I, II, and III of The 21 Urantia Book. Part IV, the Jesus Papers, had a little 22 different origin. They were produced by a midway commission 23 and were completed one year later than the other papers. The 24 first three parts were completed and certified to us in A.D. 25 1934. The Jesus Papers were not so delivered to us until 00345 { 5:35:47pm} 01 1935." 02 Q. So this says that I, II and III, the parts of The Urantia 03 Book, were completed. What does that word mean? Done, over; 04 correct? 05 A. Yes. But -- 06 Q. And certified. Who did the certification? 07 A. I don't know. 08 Q. Was it a human being? 09 A. No, I think not. 10 Q. And certified to us in 1934. It doesn't say 11 1940-something, does it? Does it? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And the part IV was delivered -- so delivered, completed 14 and certified in 1935. That's what that says; right? 15 A. True. 16 Q. And that is, as you've identified it, a statement of 17 Dr. Sadler who has the utmost, foremost knowledge about the 18 subject; correct? 19 A. True. 20 Q. All right. Now, notwithstanding this recitation, there 21 was an indication in your testimony that there was missing 22 links about the origin of The Urantia Book; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And as I understand the testimony, those links continue to 25 be missing; they are not revealed in the book and they have not 00346 { 5:35:54pm} 01 been revealed to anybody else, they are a mystery; is that a 02 fair statement? 03 A. True. 04 Q. So, the statement that we read earlier about The Urantia 05 Foundation being forthright in the information that it gave its 06 lawyers and the various governmental agencies was true except 07 for these missing links? 08 A. I suppose so. 09 Q. Now, there is nothing that you have testified to in 10 response to your lawyer's questions that would indicate that 11 your earlier testimony that all of The Urantia Book was at one 12 time in the handwriting of the patient contact personality; is 13 that correct? You haven't changed that testimony? 14 A. I have not changed that. 15 Q. And everything that he wrote ended up in that book as he 16 wrote it? 17 A. Yes, with qualification. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. Wait a minute. You said, "As he wrote it." 20 Q. I understand we have a difference of agreement. Let me 21 rephrase the question. 22 MR. ABOWITZ: May I, Judge? 23 THE COURT: Sure. 24 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) We agree that whatever is in that book 25 was in the hand of the patient contact personality? 00347 { 5:36:01pm} 01 A. In the handwriting -- 02 Q. In his handwriting? 03 A. -- of the contact personality. Yes. 04 Q. We have no difference about that? 05 A. True. 06 Q. All right. You haven't changed that? 07 A. I have not. 08 Q. All right. Now, with respect to the Jesus Papers, part 09 IV, you have no information, do you, that would indicate that 10 all -- that that was not delivered as a complete book or a 11 complete part at the time it was certified and completed in 12 1935, do you? 13 A. I have no such information. 14 Q. Now, the money that you talked about, the generous 15 donations from the members of The Contact Commission, Forum, 16 and those people that were interested in having the information 17 contained in The Urantia Book spread to more people through 18 this publication, all of those donations came after the 19 completion of the book after 1934 and 1935; correct? 20 A. True. 21 Q. The book had already been completed and certified; 22 correct? 23 A. That's what it said. 24 Q. All right. Well, that's what we've got. That's the 25 information we have; right? 00348 { 5:36:06pm} 01 A. There was additional information in that history -- 02 Q. All right. 03 A. -- that would have made it appropriate to have an 04 adjective in there to say it was completed but not definitively 05 completed. 06 Q. Is that a Bill Clinton answer? 07 THE COURT: We will not interject politics into 08 religion, counselor. 09 MR. ABOWITZ: I withdraw the religion part of the 10 question. 11 THE WITNESS: That all depends on what the meaning of 12 "is" is. 13 MR. ABOWITZ: We don't have that much time, sir. 14 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, the destruction of papers, the 15 handwritten papers were destroyed? 16 A. True. 17 Q. They were destroyed after they were transcribed into type 18 into typewritten papers? 19 A. True. 20 Q. The typewritten papers were destroyed when? 21 A. I don't know. I could conjecture. I don't know. 22 Q. Now, you indicated that one of the guiding principles here 23 was, I believe, when the book was published, all these papers 24 -- by that time, all the papers were to be destroyed. 25 A. Yes. 00349 { 5:36:13pm} 01 Q. We didn't mention this earlier, but Ms. Christensen, the 02 lady that signed a lot of these letters who was in a leadership 03 capacity with The Urantia Foundation, she passed away when? 04 A. 1982. 05 Q. Are you aware that she had locked file cabinets that no 06 one had access to? 07 A. No. 08 Q. Are you aware that she had information that pertained to 09 the origin and the matters of the production of The Urantia 10 Book that she dest- -- that were destroyed at her death? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you read them? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Were you permitted to? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So nobody knows what's in those documents? 17 A. False. 18 Q. Who knows? 19 A. Persons -- 20 Q. Who -- I'm sorry. Finish your answer. 21 A. Persons who read those. Martin Myers, for example. 22 Q. All right. So there are people that were permitted to 23 read them? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. But they are destroyed? 00350 { 5:36:18pm} 01 A. To my knowledge, yes. 02 Q. We have no record of what was in those documents? 03 A. False. 04 Q. What is the record? 05 A. There was something on the Internet sometime ago that 06 purported to be those papers. 07 Q. Who put it on the Internet? 08 A. Dennis Shields. 09 Q. An employee of The Urantia Foundation? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was that something you tried to stop? 12 A. Didn't know about it until it was already there. 13 Q. If you had, would you have tried to stop it? 14 A. I doubt it. 15 Q. Okay. I've got one last question. 16 Did the patient contact personality, was he ever informed 17 this book was going to be published? 18 A. I don't know. 19 MR. ABOWITZ: That's all I have. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Schoenthaler? 21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. SCHOENTHALER: 23 Q. Mr. Keeler, if you did like baseball and you wanted to be 24 a baseball player and the team you followed won the World 25 Series in 1962, do you think you would remember? 00351 { 5:36:25pm} 01 A. Yes. 02 MR. SCHOENTHALER: That's all. 03 THE COURT: You may step down. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: May I have one question? 05 THE COURT: Well, only two bites at the apple but 06 I'll give you a nibble. Go ahead. 07 MR. ABOWITZ: All right. 08 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 09 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 10 Q. Would that be before or after the memory program you 11 couldn't remember? 12 A. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I might be 13 incriminated. 14 THE COURT: I'll uphold his refusal. 15 You may step down. 16 (WITNESS EXCUSED) 17 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 18 MR. ABOWITZ: I call Harry McMullan to the stand. 19 THE COURT: Have you been previously sworn? 20 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 21 THE COURT: Raise your right hand and be sworn. 22 (WITNESS SWORN) 23 Harry McMullan, 24 being first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, 25 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 00352 {00:00:00PM} 01 THE COURT: Mr. McMullan, be seated and state your 02 full name and spell your full name for the jury and the court 03 record, please. 04 THE WITNESS: Harry McMullan, M-c-M-U-L-L-A-N. 05 DIRECT EXAMINATION 06 BY MR. ABOWITZ: 07 Q. Mr. McMullan, you are a resident of Oklahoma City? 08 A. Yes, sir. 09 Q. How long have you lived here? 10 A. About 25 years. 11 Q. Can you tell us what brought you to Oklahoma? 12 A. I was trying to make a living. 13 Q. Well, that's a good answer. 14 A. It was oil boom time and it seemed like a good place to 15 come. 16 Q. And where did you come from? 17 A. North Carolina. 18 Q. Were you born and raised in North Carolina? 19 A. I was born in North Carolina and raised most of my life 20 there. 21 Q. And how old were you when you came to Oklahoma? 22 A. I'll have to do a little arithmetic here. I think I was 23 about 29. 24 Q. At the time you came to Oklahoma, had you already 25 developed your interest in The Urantia Book and its affairs? 00353 {00:00:00PM} 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. When did that occur? 03 A. That occurred in 1967. 04 Q. And can you relate for us briefly, sir, how that did 05 occur. 06 A. I was a junior at the University of North Carolina and I 07 found the book in a book store there and was much taken with 08 it. 09 Q. You asked for the book or you were just browsing? 10 A. No, I was just looking around the book store because I 11 love books and I love to read. It was a used book store and it 12 was for sale for 50 cents and that seemed like a good bargain 13 for a book that size. 14 Q. And were you affected by the book? 15 A. Deeply. 16 Q. Were you affected deeply by the book the first time you 17 read it? 18 A. Yes, I was, deeply. 19 Q. Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how you 20 were affected? 21 A. I first have to say the part of the book that I read, I 22 read the part about Jesus, which is the part that we're talking 23 about here, and I -- 24 Q. Well, could you turn to exhibit 1-B and more specifically 25 relate to the jury, please -- 00354 {00:00:00PM} 01 A. This one? 02 Q. Yeah. 03 A. Well, the life of Jesus starts somewhere about here and it 04 goes to the end. And, anyway, after I bought the book, I went 05 home and started reading it and basically, you know, bleary 06 eyes and everything else, not dissimilar to the way Mr. Keeler 07 described what happened to him. I just read it. It was the 08 part about the life of Jesus that affected me and that led to a 09 relationship with Jesus that was meaningful to me, deeply, and 10 more meaningful than I had had before. 11 Q. Did you have a religious affiliation at the time you read 12 that book? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. And was that religious affiliation Christian? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So the life of Jesus was not new information to you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What was different, if anything, about its treatment in 19 this book? 20 A. Could I -- pardon me. I was going to ask for water. 21 THE WITNESS: Judge, would you mind? 22 THE COURT: No. It's right there. Careful of the 23 lid, that it doesn't fall in your lap. 24 A. Could you restate the question, please? 25 THE COURT: The question was what was the difference 00355 {00:00:00PM} 01 between that version of Jesus' life and what you previously 02 knew. 03 A. The principal thing was not a difference but it was an 04 elaboration because the story in The Urantia Book goes into 05 Jesus' life on more of a day-by-day basis. It's really a good 06 story, and at the time I didn't know whether it was just a 07 story or whether it's the truth. But, nonetheless, it had the 08 effect of bringing me closer to Jesus Christ, and so that's the 09 thing that has driven me in my interest in this book for all 10 those years. 11 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) We'll come back to that. 12 Let's go back to looking for work in Oklahoma City. 13 Were you successful? 14 A. I wasn't looking for work. I purchased a business. 15 Q. All right. And what business did you purchase? 16 A. It was an oil field valve remanufacturing company. 17 Q. And had you had experience in running businesses before 18 that? 19 A. Not really. 20 Q. So this was kind of a bold step in your entrepreneurial 21 career? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was it successful? 24 A. Ultimately, no. It was successful during the time that 25 all businesses like that were successful in the late '70s and 00356 {00:00:00PM} 01 the early '80s and it made lots of money. And then starting 02 with the Penn Square collapse and extending over another, you 03 know, three or four years, it really went to nothing. 04 Q. Did you involve yourself in any other businesses at that 05 time? 06 A. Yes, I did. 07 Q. Can you tell us what that business or businesses were? 08 A. Yes. I purchased a business from some partners. It's a 09 metal building business called Alliance Steel. 10 Q. And do you still own that business? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. And when did you purchase it? 13 A. 1978. 14 Q. Where is that business located now in Oklahoma City? 15 A. It's located about two-and-a-half miles south of I-40 on 16 Council Road. 17 Q. And what is the business of that company? 18 A. It's a manufacturer of prefabricated metal buildings, 19 large metal buildings. 20 Q. Now, let's go back to the effect that this book had on 21 you. 22 You indicated when you read it that you didn't know 23 whether it was true or not but it affected you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you pursue your interest in that book and that portion 00357 {00:00:00PM} 01 of that book? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. How did you do that? 04 A. Well, it really would be the story of what I've done in 05 the last 30 years, so I don't think everybody wants to hear 06 that. 07 Q. Well, we'll hear bits and pieces of it. Let's talk about 08 what you did at that time to expand your knowledge and 09 participation in the Urantian affairs, if I may. 10 A. The first major thing that I did was in around three or 11 four years after that I joined an outreach ministry in 12 California. 13 Q. For those three or four years, from your first reading of 14 the book until you joined the outreach ministry, did you 15 continue somehow to involve yourself in the reading of the book 16 or Urantian affairs? 17 A. Yes, I did, very much. 18 Q. What did you do? 19 A. Mostly I read the book. 20 Q. And -- 21 A. I had a job as a security guard during those years and it 22 was a midnight shift thing and I would -- I operated these 23 bulletproof glass doors and so nobody was coming through the 24 facility, so just for a couple of years I read The Urantia 25 Book. 00358 {00:00:00PM} 01 Q. How many times have you read the book? 02 A. I'm sure at least -- probably between 20 and 30 times. 03 But parts of it, 100 times. 04 Q. Now, can you briefly describe the ministry, the outreach 05 ministry, for the Court and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. 06 A. Yes. It's the same one that Richard Keeler was talking 07 about. 08 Q. This is this Mr. Grimsley's radio ministry in California? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you meet Mr. Keeler there? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. And when was that? 13 A. I met Mr. Keeler in -- I think it was in 1969. 14 Q. In connection with that ministry? 15 A. Prior to going there. 16 Q. And what was this ministry's -- what was it doing, what 17 was its purpose? 18 A. Its purpose was to bring the teachings of The Urantia Book 19 to people. 20 Q. And how were they doing that? 21 A. The person in charge of the ministry would go out onto 22 campuses and ask kind of cute questions about religion and then 23 he would edit these tapes and syndicate the broadcast to 24 different radio stations. 25 Q. And what was your role in that ministry? 00359 {00:00:00PM} 01 A. It really wasn't much. I sent the tapes out. I don't 02 know. I did everything people wanted me to do but it wasn't -- 03 I was a volunteer. Is that what you meant? 04 Q. No, I want to know what your responsibilities were. 05 A. I was mostly in charge of distributing the tapes to the 06 stations. 07 Q. You've already told us you did that on a volunteer basis? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. You were not paid? 10 A. No. 11 Q. How long did that last? 12 A. Two years. 13 Q. And what did you do next in connection with your 14 involvement with Urantian affairs? 15 A. Let's see. That would take us to early 1973 and my next 16 involvement that really -- I mean, all along I was going to 17 conferences and reading the book and getting to know people 18 that shared that interest. 19 Q. Well, let me interrupt you, if I may. Tell us a little 20 bit about the conferences. Were they quarterly, annual, all 21 the time, or what? 22 A. There have been summer Urantian conferences for, oh, gosh, 23 for at least 30 years. Every third year, there's a big 24 conference. The bigger conferences lately have had around 25 1,000 people. The off-year conferences, maybe we'll have a 00360 {00:00:00PM} 01 couple hundred people. 02 Q. What occurs at those conferences? 03 A. Well, there's study of the presentations on all sorts of 04 topics in The Urantia Book. There's normally in the evening 05 there's worship, there's prayer. They start off with a -- 06 often they'll start off with a spiritual retreat of some kind 07 where people get together, you know, and then have prayer and 08 meditation and song and, you know -- 09 Q. You mentioned to us the first time that you read the book 10 you didn't know whether it was true or not. Did you at some 11 point in this path conclude that it was or was not true? 12 A. Yes. Quite early I concluded that it was true. 13 Q. That what was true? 14 A. That The Urantia Book was true as it had been represented 15 to be authored by celestial beings. 16 Q. Did that become the basis for your religion? 17 A. No, it didn't. It was what the book said; not what the 18 story was about, how it might have gotten here. 19 Q. May I use the word "principles," would that be accurate, 20 the principles set forth in the book became the basis of your 21 religion? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is it today? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And it has been for what period of time? 00361 {00:00:00PM} 01 A. Oh, since the '60s. Since the late '60s. 02 Q. Did you attend these conferences regularly? 03 A. I think I missed one maybe in the last 25 years due to -- 04 I can't remember -- something happened that I couldn't be 05 there. 06 Q. Did you have any membership in any of these organizations 07 that were related to the Urantia Foundation? 08 A. I became a member of Urantia Brotherhood sometime in the 09 late 1960s, I think, possibly early '70s, and I became -- I was 10 elected to the board of directors in 1979 and have been in that 11 position ever since. 12 Q. And that was before you got to Oklahoma City? 13 A. No, I was already here. 14 Q. Just here? 15 A. Well, I came here in late '75 -- 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. -- and this is '79 that I was elected to the board. 18 Q. And what did you do -- well, first of all, before you got 19 on the board, what were the activities of The Brotherhood? 20 A. What The Brotherhood would try to do is simply get The 21 Urantia Book and the teachings in The Urantia Book out into the 22 world is the main -- and distribute The Urantia Book. 23 Q. And how did The Brotherhood do that? 24 A. It was the sales agent for Urantia Foundation through what 25 Mr. Keeler described as the -- as The Urantia Brotherhood 00362 {00:00:00PM} 01 Corporation. He very accurately described that. It's sort of 02 the same thing. It distributed the book and sent it out to 03 people that inquired. 04 Q. Did The Brotherhood go out and have one-on-one or small 05 group meetings with people that had expressed interest in the 06 book or the movement or the teachings? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And you did that as a member of The Brotherhood? 09 A. No, I didn't do that as a representative of The 10 Brotherhood. I just did it -- I've done it for years and years 11 just as an individual. I -- Could you rephrase your question, 12 please? 13 Q. Let me ask it in a different way. 14 How many copies of The Urantia Book have you purchased 15 over the years? 16 A. I don't know. Maybe 4- or 5,000. 17 Q. And have you distributed them? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. To people that have an interest? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And to people that would like to have an interest? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And people that you thought should have an interest? 24 A. That I hoped would have an interest. 25 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. You hoped would have an interest. 00363 {00:00:00PM} 01 And you have -- 02 A. I don't try to dictate to people whether they should have 03 an interest or not. 04 Q. All right. But if you had that hope, say, with respect to 05 me, you would essentially give me a copy of the book? 06 A. I would ask you if you would like a copy of the book. 07 Q. And if I said yes, you would give me a copy of the book? 08 A. Then I would try to get you a book. 09 Q. And during the course of the years that you purchased 10 4- or 5,000 copies of this book, did you interrelate with the 11 people to whom you gave the book about the teachings in the 12 book? 13 A. Yeah, uh-huh. 14 Q. Were you active in these conferences in the -- I'm going 15 to use the word study group -- and if I use a word or term with 16 which you don't agree, stop me and give me the right term, 17 please. 18 A. All right. 19 Q. Were you involved with these study groups in these 20 conferences that took place in the summer? 21 A. Well, we're talking about two different things. The 22 conferences just generally occur and they typically occur in 23 the summertime. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. And with that there are formal presentations and they 00364 {00:00:00PM} 01 typically go on four or five days and they're somewhere usually 02 in the United States. 03 Q. And that's different from what we were talking about? 04 A. The study groups is like the house church thing and they 05 meet in people's homes typically around the United States, and 06 there's some here in Oklahoma City. 07 Q. And can you -- 08 A. That's sort of a weekly event. 09 Q. All right. Can you describe a house church for us, 10 please. 11 A. I can describe it based on my experiences as involved 12 in -- in North Carolina, prior to being involved with The 13 Urantia Book and the Urantia movement, I attended a church 14 which was a nondenominational church that really, you know, 15 didn't have a paid minister but it had -- they had a group and 16 they called themselves elders, I guess, or I think they did, 17 and we would study the Bible and we would do church kind of 18 things but it wasn't in a church building with an 19 ecclesiastical structure. 20 Q. And that's basically the type of an organization that 21 existed in the Urantian movement in Oklahoma? 22 A. Yes. It's even less formal than that as far as the 23 Urantia meetings and the study groups. 24 Q. And what's your participation been over the years in those 25 house churches and the study groups? 00365 {00:00:00PM} 01 A. I haven't attended a house church probably since I was in 02 college. I attended three or four different house churches at 03 different times. And my -- I have for some -- for many years I 04 was very regular in attending the study group here in Oklahoma, 05 which the one that I attend is on Sunday nights, and then I 06 moved to a farm about five years ago and sort of broke the 07 habit and I'm not that regular anymore, but I still go and 08 enjoy going. 09 Q. Can you briefly tell us what occurs in a study group? 10 A. Yes, I can. 11 Q. Please do. 12 A. It typically is a reading -- at least in the one that I 13 attend -- and most of them that I have ever attended are sort 14 of along this line. There will be a section in The Urantia 15 Book which is read and a part will be read and then there is -- 16 first of all, it starts out normally with a prayer to ask God 17 to bless our group and to help us understand what we're going 18 to read. Then the part -- you know, we'll read a part and then 19 when anybody has something to talk about with it, they do. And 20 then after a couple of hours, we -- you know, maybe there's 21 some cookies and everybody goes home. 22 Q. Now, let's talk about the summer conferences, the larger 23 conferences. They were sponsored by the Urantia Foundation or 24 The Brotherhood? 25 A. Well, in recent years, The Urantia Foundation has 00366 {00:00:00PM} 01 sponsored some since the organizations split. As far as I 02 know, prior to the split, The Urantia Foundation never had any 03 conferences of its own. The only conferences were The 04 Brotherhood conferences. So, once The Brotherhood became The 05 Fellowship, we've continued to have ours. So, I've never 06 attended any Urantia Foundation conferences. 07 Q. What happens at these conferences that you've attended 08 sponsored by The Brotherhood and then The Fellowship? 09 A. Well, they're pretty elaborate affairs. On the bigger 10 ones, in the evenings there will be -- they will typically be 11 some entertainment, some singing, there will be kids' program, 12 a singing of spiritual songs, there will be group prayer. 13 Normally, at some time in the mornings, if people want to, they 14 go out and have prayer together before the meeting starts. 15 Then there's a series of talks that are given on particular 16 topics where everybody attends typically in the morning and 17 typically in the afternoon. There are a number of subgroups 18 that break out and there might be, you know, whereas everybody 19 is together in the morning, there might be groups of 20 or 30, 20 and so you'd have maybe 40 or 50 different things going over 21 the course of an afternoon and a person would be able to attend 22 a couple of them. So you'd pick the one that -- the interest 23 that you had and attend that one. 24 Q. And those are generally related to the 196 paper of The 25 Urantia Book? 00367 {00:00:00PM} 01 A. Yes, they are. 02 Q. Have you had a role as a moderator or a leader of any of 03 those programs? 04 A. Yes, I have, on several -- on a number of occasions. 05 Q. How many times? 06 A. Oh, I don't know. I'd say at least half a dozen times of 07 the big conferences, of the summer conferences. Probably more 08 than that. 09 Q. And did that require you to prepare a paper or some 10 presentation with respect to a specific aspect of that book? 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. Essentially, what is that, a research paper or an 13 analytical paper, or what? You describe it for me in your own 14 words. 15 A. Well, it might be on the subject of how prayer works. I 16 remember giving one on that. 17 On different things to do with a relationship between The 18 Urantia Book and Christianity, I've given some talks on that. 19 Another one I gave was how you -- I'm not sure I was the 20 appropriate person to give the talk -- but it was on how the 21 spiritual principles can make a person more successful in their 22 business life. So there have been times when that was 23 appropriate and times when it wasn't, or when I followed my own 24 recipe. 25 Q. Have you, over the years, published works other than Jesus 00368 {00:00:00PM} 01 - A New Revelation that relate to The Urantia Book? 02 A. Yes, I have. 03 Q. First, let me show you what we have marked as exhibit 76. 04 MR. ABOWITZ: Counsel? 05 MR. HILL: (COUNSEL NODS HEAD) 06 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Do you have a copy in front of you? 07 A. Yes, I do. 08 Q. And what is that, please, sir? 09 A. This is a book entitled, "Index to The Urantia Book." 10 Q. And that is something that you put together and published? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. When? 13 A. I think it was published about two years -- well, about 14 two years ago. 15 Q. Can you give us a background of how it came to be? 16 A. Well, the problem in The Urantia Book, for serious 17 students, is you can't find what you're looking for. There's 18 no index in the book. And so people would end up having very, 19 very heavily annotated books that say, "If this connects to 20 this, page this, page that." 21 In conjunction with The Fellowship printing of an edition 22 of The Urantia Book -- and we had it up here -- Mr. Keeler -- 23 no, pardon me, it was never entered into evidence. Anyway, 24 there was a book that The Fellowship published and our concept 25 was that it needed an index because serious books are supposed 00369 {00:00:00PM} 01 to have indexes. So, there was a man that was producing one 02 and I was in charge of formatting this book to get it together 03 and by the time I got around to looking at the index I didn't 04 think it worked very well, what he had done, so I told him that 05 I thought they shouldn't publish it with that index. And then, 06 you know, the way things work when you're on a committee, if 07 you find a problem with somebody else's work, then you end up 08 being the one that gets to do it. 09 Q. You became a Marine Corps volunteer; right? 10 A. That's exactly right. I should have kept my mouth shut. 11 But, anyway, I became fascinated with the subject. This 12 was about four or five years work to do this. It's an 13 extremely exacting job. 14 MR. ABOWITZ: We'd move it be admitted, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Without objection, it will be admitted. 16 MR. HILL: (COUNSEL NODS HEAD) 17 Q. (BY MR. ABOWITZ) Now, can you tell us briefly -- you 18 mentioned it's an index, but can you give us an example of how 19 it works and what you did to put it together? 20 A. Well, it involved, just for the production of this thing, 21 it involved reading through The Urantia Book on a word-by-word 22 basis about three or four times, and then when a particular 23 subject is mentioned, then it goes into -- then I would take 24 that word and put it into a database. And then -- well, in The 25 Urantia Book, a lot of things -- it's very common that the same 00370 {00:00:00PM} 01 thing is referred to by a lot of different names. And the 02 essence of an index is that everything gets under the same 03 topic, so that if you're looking for trees, for example, then 04 you don't have to look under oaks and cedars and, you know, all 05 sorts of things like that. You look under tree and then there 06 are subheadings for what it is. 07 Here, if you're looking for the Apostles, then there's a 08 listing of who all the Apostles are, and it will say, for 09 Matthew, "See Matthew under Apostles." So, it's a way to 10 organize information so that when people are looking for a 11 particular thing, they can find all of it. 12 Q. And using your illustration, if one is looking for 13 "Matthew" and they find it, they will find a page reference for 14 every time "Matthew" is mentioned in the 2000-plus pages of The 15 Urantia Book? 16 A. That's the concept. For any use that has any 17 significance. If it was just -- If it was something that 18 said, "Matthew, James, John and Phillip went over and sat on 19 the rock," you know, it probably wouldn't be in there because 20 it doesn't have any -- it's nothing anybody would ever care 21 for, care about. So, the indexer has to make a judgment on 22 what things have significance, or else -- because if it's too 23 bulky, it's not as usable. 24 Q. Who publishes that work? 25 A. Michael Foundation. 00371 {00:00:00PM} 01 Q. And that's the Michael Foundation that's a party in this 02 lawsuit? 03 A. That's correct. 04 Q. And is that copyrighted? 05 A. Yes, it is. 06 Q. By whom? 07 A. By me. 08 Q. Do you make that available to Urantians? 09 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. It's for sale? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you give away copies? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you give attribution to The Urantia Book in that index? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Could you -- I hesitate to get involved in that. I think 17 maybe I can do this. 18 Would you please turn to the -- there we go -- to the 19 publisher's preface. Can you see that? 20 Now, you mentioned the concordance and the concordance 21 that Mr. Keeler discussed this morning. How do those differ 22 from your publication? 23 A. A concordance is totally different than an index, although 24 it's a way to achieve -- it's a totally different way of trying 25 to achieve the same thing. In a concordance, you have -- the 00372 {00:00:00PM} 01 concordance only has the exact words that happen to be in the 02 volume. So, if you had a concordance of the Bible for the 03 International Version, it wouldn't work for a King James 04 Version because where it says "you" in one, it's going to say 05 "thou" in the other and it only has those exact words. 06 So, what an index does is make available the access to the 07 information by the subject, whereas the concordance can only 08 take the exact words that are there. So, I mean, another 09 problem is the concordance -- concordances are too long. If 10 you were going to look up the word "Jesus" in something in a 11 concordance, it would be -- you know, it would have every 12 single time the word "Jesus" occurred and you really want to 13 know what he was doing when the 5,000 were fed or something -- 14 you know, something that would be a little -- an index 15 condenses things and a concordance, in its nature, cannot. So, 16 on a separate line on these indexes, there might be four or 17 five different references that sort of get to the same topic. 18 Q. Now, the publication Jesus - A New Revelation is up 19 there. I would ask you to get that, please. That's already in 20 evidence. That is the publication that the Michael Foundation 21 has published that is at the heart of this dispute? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. And when was that published? 24 A. It was published in 1999, I think around June. 25 Q. And does that volume contain the portion of your 00373 {00:00:00PM} 01 publication index to The Urantia Book that is appropriate for 02 that portion of The Urantia Book? 03 A. Yes, it does. 04 Q. And that is a work that has been copyrighted by you? 05 A. Yes, it has. 06 Q. Tell us about the cover of that book. 07 A. Oh, Jesus - A New Revelation? 08 Q. Yeah. 09 A. This is a painting by Salvador Dali. I don't know if 10 you've ever seen it but it's a pretty famous painting. It's 11 called Jesus of Saint John of the Cross and it shows -- in my 12 opinion, what it's showing here is the resurrected Jesus and 13 he's on -- he's over the Sea of Galilee here, at least that's 14 what people think it is. That's what people think the 15 representation is. There's a boat and a fisherman down there. 16 And the thing that's so striking about it is that Jesus 17 actually isn't attached to the cross. You know, so it just 18 shows his victory over death and his resurrection, and it shows 19 -- you know, it shows a really powerful guy too. It's not a 20 milk toast kind of picture that a lot of the medieval pictures 21 of Jesus were. So that was -- you know, for that reason, I 22 thought it was a good -- an appropriate cover for a book about 23 Jesus. 24 Q. How do you choose that? 25 A. I chose it -- I don't know -- with a lot of effort and 00374 {00:00:00PM} 01 second guessing and everything else. I wanted it to be as good 02 as possible. There were a lot of possibilities and this seemed 03 the best one. 04 Q. Have you received any compliments about that work? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Give us a magnitude. 07 A. Hundreds. 08 Q. Have you received criticisms? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. From whom? 11 A. Almost entirely people associated with Urantia 12 Foundation. There have been a few that don't like the cover, 13 you know, that aren't fans of Urantia Foundation either. But, 14 by and large, it was from people that didn't -- that thought 15 that Urantia Foundation should be the sole publisher of 16 anything to do with The Urantia Book. 17 Q. When did you first contemplate publishing part IV of The 18 Urantia Book? 19 THE COURT: Counsel, this might be a pretty good 20 place to take an evening recess before we get further into it. 21 9 o'clock in the morning be agreeable? 22 MR. ABOWITZ: I think we have a problem with the 23 courtroom in the morning. 24 THE LAW CLERK: Judge -- 25 THE COURT: No, I think no. 00375 {00:00:00PM} 01 THE COURT REPORTER: Judge, that hearing is off. 02 THE COURT: That problem is solved, right. 03 We don't recognize junior judges in this courtroom. 04 We're all right on the courtroom, counsel. 05 You show up and we'll have a place for you to work. 06 MR. ABOWITZ: I was concerned. We were told to move 07 all our gear. So I guess our gear can stay in place? 08 THE COURT: That's rescinded. Leave your gear here. 09 9 o'clock agreeable? 10 MR. ABOWITZ: Yes, sir. 11 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be recessed 12 until 9 o'clock in the morning. Be back in the jury assembly 13 room just prior to that time. I again remind you very 14 specifically about the instructions not to discuss this case. 15 Don't permit anyone to discuss it with you or in your 16 presence. And with that admonition, we'll see you here at 17 9 o'clock in the morning. 18 Everyone stand and remain standing until the jurors have 19 cleared the courtroom. 20 (THE JURY WAS EXCUSED FROM THE COURTROOM, AFTER WHICH THE 21 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT:) 22 THE COURT: Court is in recess. 23 (THE EVENING RECESS WAS TAKEN) 24 (PLEASE REFER TO VOLUME III) 25